Posted on 10/30/2008 1:09:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
According to the Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47, "If you die in the love of God but possess any stains of sin, such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime."
The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
Among the many doctrines that Catholicism claims to be derived through Sacred Tradition, purgatory is one of the most interesting and puzzling, particularly to a Protestant. In light of the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? Wasn't Jesus' punishment for our transgressions sufficient? Didn't He take our place in that He suffered our death? It would seem that the words of Christ, "It is finished," (John 19:30) do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross.
Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of purgatory (Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47).
In light of the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 5:1; Rom. 4:5; Rom. 9:30; Acts 13:39; Gal. 2:16), where Jesus bore all of our sins, purgatory would seem to have no theologically justifiable right to exist. But the Bible alone is not appealed to by Catholic theologians in support of Purgatory. By far, the main support for Purgatory is found in the Catholic doctrine of Sacred Tradition. Nevertheless, what does the Bible say about justification, punishment, and our sins?
To justify means acquit, declare righteous, the opposite of condemn. It means to not be guilty of breaking the Law and to be deemed as righteous by the standard of the Law.
God gave the Law, i.e, the 10 commandments. The Law is a reflection of Gods character and it is a perfect standard of righteousness which no one can keep. Since no one is able to keep Gods Law, no one can be justified by the Law (Rom. 3:20). There is, therefore, none righteous (Rom. 3:10-12). This is the problem of all people. We have all broken Gods Law and are in need of justification, of being declared righteous in Gods sight. This can only be done through the Messiah, our sin bearer.
Jesus is the one who took our place on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21), and turned away the wrath of God from us (Rom. 5:9) by being a propitiation (1 John 2:2) that turned away the wrath of God. He was punished in our place. Therefore, Jesus was our substitution. The righteous work of Christ is imputed to the believer by grace (Titus 3:7) and through faith (Rom. 5:1). This justification is a legal action on the part of God reckoning the believer as having satisfied the Law all of the Law.
It necessarily follows that to be justified in Gods eyes, is to be fully justified. It is not part of the Law that must be satisfied, but all of it. Perfection is the standard. Likewise, it is not part of our sins that were born by Christ, but all of them. This justification includes all of the sins of the believer (past, present, and future) or else we could not be justified.
The Catholic Catechism (paragraphs 1990-1992) says, "Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon Gods merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals"...."Justification is at the same time the acceptance of Gods righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ..." and "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy."
Of particular interest is the reference that "justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." There are many verses in the Bible that deal with baptism and putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:1-11). This paper is not intended to discuss the nature of baptism. Nevertheless, I strongly affirm that baptism is a covenant sign for the believer who is already justified by faith and for the children of believers who are under the covenant headship of the family. Baptism is not what justifies a person. Rather,
Jesus said, "It is finished," (John 19:30)
Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai, was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away Gods wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished.
Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in purgatory for sins not covered by baptism and not covered by the cross. It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit, a work of suffering. Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.
When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ's work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but it contradicts Gods word.
It does not.
Obumma’s quite eager to see that they do.
Yeah, Harley,
I’ve always been rather averse to ANYTHING which casts the least bit of aspersion on the Blood of Jesus and IT’S ALL SUFFICIENCY.
You do NOT get grace thru faith...Grace is a free gift to all...From God...You get salvation thru faith, not grace...
Catholic belief is in agreement. Works of man are of no avail. Doing the will of God is another story.
It certainly is...It's a story you apparently don't understand...Here is the will of God, in God's own words:
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And this as well as numerous passages goes right along with:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
THAT is the will of God; that you believe in his Son...That is what gives a person salvation...That is how a person becomes a Christian in this age...
Not at all. We even believe James 2:24. Is "not by faith alone" a complete mystery to you?
I already told you it wasn't...I believe every word of the verse...
I’ve always been rather averse to ANYTHING which casts the least bit of aspersion on the Blood of Jesus and IT’S ALL SUFFICIENCY.
Amen!
“..purgatory is not a place where the soul works or earns or in any way does something to cleanse himself — all purification that takes place in purgatory is done by God to the soul. Or, to put it a different way, in purgatory, the [soul remains passive as the saving blood of Jesus Christ] washes away the impurities and temporal effects due to sin from the soul. This is because those who go to purgatory are assured of their salvation; there is nothing for them to do – [Christ does it all] in his merciful act of preparing his beloved to enter into the wedding feast”.
SOURCE: Planet Envoy; The Biblical Doctrine of Purgatory
http://www.envoymagazine.com/PlanetEnvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom1.htm
This is my Catholic Faith.
Gonzo
Take Care
“You get salvation through faith, not grace...”
You get salvation through faith AND baptism(which gives the grace*)
Mk 16:16: He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 16:15-16: But when they believed[faith] Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, (they were baptized), both men and women.
*Another effect of baptism is the infusion of sanctifying grace and supernatural gifts and virtues. It is this sanctifying grace which renders men the adopted sons of God and confers the right to heavenly glory. The doctrine on this subject is found in the seventh chapter on justification in the sixth session of the Council of Trent. Many of the Fathers of the Church also enlarge upon this subject (as St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, Clement of Alexandria, and others), though not in the technical language of later ecclesiastical decrees.—Catholic Encyclopedia: BAPTISM
Acts.15:11: But we believe that (through the grace) of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Eph.2:4-5: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8: For (by grace are ye saved) through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
1 Peter 3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism(by which we receive grace-Gonzo) doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
2 Tim 2:9: Who hath (saved us), and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but (according to his own purpose and grace), which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
Tit 3:7: That being (justified by his grace), we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
What about this verse??? What if you believe and don't get baptized, will you be damned??? Verse doesn't say that does it???
What you are subscribing to is called 'wresting the scriptures', in the scriptures...
You get salvation through faith AND baptism(which gives the grace*)
There's not a piece of scripture anywhere that says you get grace from baptism...That's an invention of your religion...It doesn't come from God...
Acts 16:15-16: But when they believed[faith] Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, (they were baptized), both men and women.
You got the wrong chapter and verse...The Catholic publication you are copying and pasting from is in error...
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
So what??? I was baptized AFTER I believed...After I was saved...Had nothing to do with salvation...
*Another effect of baptism is the infusion of sanctifying grace and supernatural gifts and virtues. It is this sanctifying grace which renders men the adopted sons of God and confers the right to heavenly glory. The doctrine on this subject is found in the seventh chapter on justification in the sixth session of the Council of Trent. Many of the Fathers of the Church also enlarge upon this subject (as St. Cyprian, St. Jerome, Clement of Alexandria, and others), though not in the technical language of later ecclesiastical decrees.—Catholic Encyclopedia: BAPTISM
The TRUTH however, is found in the scriptures...And there's not a bit of truth in that paragraph...
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
If you can't prove it in the scriptures, it's not true...Your council of Trent is meaningless and heretical when it goes outside the scriptures to build it's church...
Everyone who receives salvation, receives it because of the grace of God...Everyone who has grace doesn not receive salvation...
Grace does not come from baptism or anything else you or someone else might do or perform to receive it...Grace is a free gift to everyone...Without baptism...Without faith...
Call on Jesus to become yur Saviour...(He will before your heart makes the next heartbeat)...THEN, get baptized to show Jesus, yourself and those around you that you meant business...
In opposition to this doctrine a theory of perfect sanctification in this life has been taught from several distinct points of view, e.g.:
2. According to the Mystical idea, perfection consists in absorption in the divine essence, or, in a less extreme form, in the absorption of human desires and will into the divine will, in a disinterested love; and this may be attained by anyone through persistent detachment from self and meditation on God. 3. According to the Roman or Ritualistic theory, perfection consists in perfect conformity to the law of God, graciously for Christ's sake adjusted to the capacities of the regenerated man in this life; and this perfection is attained by means of meritorious works and penances, prayers, fasts, acts of voluntary self-denial, and ecclesiastical obedience. Not only is this within the reach of men, but so is even the rendering of supererogatory service in the way of extra-legal self-denial from a principle of evangelical love. 4. The Wesleyan theory of perfection conceives that the satisfaction and merit of Christ have made it consistent with divine justice to offer salvation to men on easier terms than the old Adamic law of absolute perfection; and that perfection is attained when these lower terms have been complied with. "Christian character is estimated by the conditions of the gospel; Christian perfection implies the perfect performance of these conditions, and nothing more."7 4. The evangelical doctrine of sanctification common to the Lutheran and Reformed Churches includes the following points: (1) The soul after regeneration continues dependent upon the constant gracious operations of the Holy Spirit, but is, through grace, able to co-operate with them. (2) The sanctifying operations of the Spirit are supernatural, and yet effected in connection with and through the instrumentality of means: the means of sanctification being either internal, such as faith and the co-operation of the regenerated will with grace, or external, such as the word of God, sacraments, prayer, Christian fellowship, and the providential discipline of our heavenly Father. (3) In this process the Spirit gradually completes the work of moral purification commenced in regeneration. The work has two sides: (a) the cleansing of the soul from sin and emancipation from its power, and (b) the development of the implanted principle of spiritual life and infused habits of grace, until the subject comes to the stature of perfect manhood in Christ. Its effect is spiritually and morally to transform the whole man, intellect, affections, and will, soul, and body. (4) The work proceeds with various degrees of thoroughness during life, but is never consummated in absolute moral perfection until the subject passes into glory.
1. According to the principles of Pelagianism, a man is perfect who obeys the laws of God to the measure of his present natural ability, since the moral law is a sliding scale, adjusting its demands to the varying ability of its subject; and this is possible to every man.
“What about this verse??? What if you believe and don’t get baptized, will you be damned??? Verse doesn’t say that does it???”
Man I don’t know how to answer you!? This is Jesus Christ Himself talking here!
You have to believe AND be baptized in order to be saved!
“There’s not a piece of scripture anywhere that says you get grace from baptism...That’s an invention of your religion...It doesn’t come from God...”
Here it is:
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the —(washing of regeneration)—, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That, being justified by his —(grace)—, we may be heirs according to hope of life everlasting.” —Titus 3:5-7
“The TRUTH however, is found in the scriptures...And there’s not a bit of truth in that paragraph...”
The TRUTH is found in the Church, the pillar and ground of TRUTH:
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
And this Pillar of Truth tells me that the Scriptures are divinely inspired and that’s why I believe them, this same Pillar of Truth tells me that there is also Sacred Tradition
(
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the (traditions) which ye have been taught, (whether by word, or our epistle).—2Thes 2:15)
from where I also learn, as well as from Scripture, as shown above, one recieves grace from baptism.
This verse might help too:
“The like figure whereunto even [baptism doth also now save us] (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” 1 Pet 3:21
God Bless!
Gonzo
There is no water involved in the 'washing of regeneration'...
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
The washing of regeneration is not something we do, such as baptism, it is something God does...There is no water baptism in that verse...
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
No church is the pillar and ground of the truth...God (in the verse) is the pillar and ground of the truth...Specifically, the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth...Jesus said 'I am the Truth'...NOT your church...
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the (traditions) which ye have been taught, (whether by word, or our epistle).—2Thes 2:15)
This verse proves that the tradition being spoken of and the written word are the SAME thing...God didn't give you the choice of believing the epistles OR your church traditions...And God did NOT say the epistles AND the traditions...
You believe the written word, OR the spoken word if the written word isn't available or you can't read...
“The like figure whereunto even [baptism doth also now save us] (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:” 1 Pet 3:21
No water in that verse either...
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost
Yes, the same in the sense that they are from the Holy Spirit, different in that one is written (epistle) the other is by word of mouth that is to say not written(tradition). The both we must hold fast to.
St. Paul is here distinguishing between two distinct modes of the transmission of what he taught under inspiration.
Whether by “word”(oral mode, not written or also called tradition), or our “epistle”(written mode not oral)
TRADITION: the process of handing down information, opinions, beliefs, and customs by (word) of mouth.
—Webster
Yeah, who says Catholics don't believe in limited atonement? :)
The traditions Paul spoke of matched the written epistles...The man-made traditions your church comes up with don’t match any written epistles...Therefore, your Catholic church traditions are illegitimate...
OK, for the sake of argument.
Just what are those traditions?
Where can I find them in order to match them with the Epistles?
Once again: Traditions are oral, see Webster's.
TRADITION: 2 : the process of handing down information, opinions, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example : transmission of knowledge and institutions through successive generations without written instruction. -—Webster's Third New International Unabridged Dictionary.
AND: Epistles are written.
EPISTLE: 1 a : one of the letters of the New Testament. 2 a : LETTER. -—Webster's Third New International Unabridged Dictionary.
The traditions ARE the epistles...
When the authors of the NT started preaching what Jesus taught them to pass on, it took years for these messages to be turned into enough writing that there would be plenty to go around...
2Ti 4:13 The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
And no doubt even in this case, Paul left his materials at Troas where they were being copied...So in this case, the people here were hearing the epistles without the benefit of reading them...And when Timothy showed up with them, you can bet copies were made there also...
Paul taught the same things over and over again to different churches...He did so enough that these were called traditions...
It makes no sense whatever that Paul told different groups of people that they could believe what he personally wrote in his epistles or they had the choice to believe instead what his traditions were...
Your church uses this verse to prove that Paul claims that you should believe the epistles AND the traditions...But that's NOT what the verse says...
There are NO separate writings of the traditions because they are the same as the written epistles...
Where do the epistles claim to subsumed the traditions?
In the context of the scriptures...
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Two things...If there were traditions outside of the written epistles that carried equal weight with the epistles, the verse would have said AND instead of OR...And secondly, the traditions would have been reduced to writing as well, BY PAUL...
The Scripture validates NONE of your assertions. Your interpretation is the very definition of eisegesis.
And what on earth is “in the context of the scriptures” supposed to mean?
Any time you rely on the phrase “would have,” you are admitting a lack of scriptural support. Further, you are claiming omniscience.
Well, what part of the Catholic definition don’t you understand?
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