Hebrew DNA found in South America? [OPEN]

Mormon Times ^ | Monday, May. 12, 2008 | By Michael De Groote

[restornu]

Was Hebrew DNA recently found in American Indian populations in South America? According to Scott R. Woodward, executive director of Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, a DNA marker, called the "Cohen modal haplotype," sometimes associated with Hebrew people, has been found in Colombia, Brazil and Bolivia.

But it probably has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon -- at least not directly.

For years several critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of the Book of Mormon have claimed that the lack of Hebrew DNA markers in living Native American populations is evidence the book can't be true. They say the book's description of ancient immigrations of Israelites is fictional.

"But," said Woodward, "as Hugh Nibley used to say, 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' "

Critic Thomas Murphy, for example, wrote in one article about how the Cohen modal haplotype had been found in the Lemba clan in Africa. The Lemba clan's oral tradition claims it has Jewish ancestors.

Murphy then complained, "If the (Book of Mormon) documented actual Israelite migrations to the New World, then one would expect to find similar evidence to that found in a Lemba clan in one or more Native American populations. Such evidence, however, has not been forthcoming."

Until now.

So will Murphy and other critics use this new evidence of Hebrew DNA markers to prove the Book of Mormon is correct? Probably not. But neither should anyone else.

Why?

According to Woodward, the way critics have used DNA studies to attack the Book of Mormon is "clearly wrong." And it would be equally wrong to use similar DNA evidence to try to prove it.

This is because "not all DNA (evidence) is created equal," Woodward said.

According to Woodward, while forensic DNA (popularized in TV shows like "CSI") looks for the sections of DNA that vary greatly from individual to individual, the sections of DNA used for studying large groups are much smaller and do not change from individual to individual.

Studies using this second type of DNA yield differing levels of reliability or, as Woodward calls it, "resolution."

At a lower resolution the confidence in the results goes down. At higher resolution confidence goes up in the results.

Guess which level of resolution critics of the Book of Mormon use?

The critics' problem now is what they do with the low-resolution discovery of Hebrew DNA in American Indian populations.

For people who believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account, the problem is to resist the temptation to misuse this new discovery.

Woodward says that most likely, when higher-resolution tests are used, we will learn that the Hebrew DNA in native populations can be traced to conquistadors whose ancestors intermarried with Jewish people in Spain or even more modern migrations.

Ironically, it is the misuse of evidence that gave critics fuel to make their DNA arguments in the first place. According to Woodward, the critics are attacking the straw man that all American Indians are only descendants of the migrations described in the Book of Mormon and from no other source.

Although some Latter-day Saints have assumed this was the case, this is not a claim the Book of Mormon itself actually makes. Scholars have argued for more than 50 years that the book allows for the migrations meeting an existing population.

This completely undermines the critics' conclusions. They argue with evangelic zeal that the Book of Mormon demands that no other DNA came to America but from Book of Mormon groups.

Yet, one critic admitted to Woodward that he had never read the Book of Mormon.

Woodward also sees that it is essential to read the Book of Mormon story closely to understand what type of DNA the Book of Mormon people would have had. The Book of Mormon describes different migrations to the New World. The most prominent account is the 600-B.C. departure from Jerusalem of a small group led by a prophet named Lehi. But determining Lehi's DNA is difficult because the book claims he is not even Jewish, but a descendant of the biblical Joseph.

According to Woodward, even if you assume we knew what DNA to look for, finding DNA evidence of Book of Mormon people may be very difficult. When a small group of people intermarry into a large population, the DNA markers that might identify their descendants could entirely disappear -- even though their genealogical descendants could number in the millions.

This means it is possible that almost every American Indian alive today could be genealogically related to Lehi's family but still retain no identifiable DNA marker to prove it. In other words, you could be related genealogically to and perhaps even feel a spiritual kinship with an ancestor but still not have any vestige of his DNA.

Such are the vagaries, ambiguities and mysteries of the study of DNA.

So will we ever find DNA from Lehi's people? Woodward hopes so.

"I don't dismiss the possibility," said Woodward, "but the probability is pretty low."

Woodward speculated about it, imagining he were able to identify pieces of DNA that would be part of Lehi's gene pool. Then, imagine if a match was found in the Native American population.

But even then, Woodward would be cautious. "It could have been other people who share the same (DNA) markers," said Woodward about the imaginary scenario.

"It's an amazingly complex picture. To think that you can prove (group relationships) like you can use DNA to identify a (criminal) is not on the same scale of scientific inquiry."

Like the Book of Mormon itself, from records buried for centuries in the Hill Cumorah, genetic "proof" may remain hid up unto the Lord.

[fproy2222]

I would like to get back to the idea of the article.

This DNA find does not prove the Book of Mormon is true.

This DNA find does shoot big holes in the false conclusion about DNA proving the Book of Mormon wrong.

Yet, many “Christians” will refuse the “new” evidence, because it does not match their pre-conclusions, and they will keep posting it anyway.

[ChicagoHebrew]

DNA has proved the Book of Mormon wrong. The overwhelming majority of Native Americans have no trace of Hebrew DNA, just as archeology shows no trace of a Lamennite or Nephite civilization.

The fact that there is Jewish DNA in certain parts of Latin America is not evidence otherwise. Wherever there is Hebrew DNA, there are linguistic, cultural and oral history markers pointing to Sephardic Jews (my people) who fled the Inquisition in Spain & Portugal to the New World. DNA evidence of Sephardim intermarrying and (largely) assimilating is not "evidence" that should remotely influence any rational Christian/Mormon disputation.

For the record, I'm neither Christian nor LDS, so I have no beef in your dispute. I am, however, a supporter of efforts to reach out to those lost Sephardim who want to return to Judaism, and bring them back. Many have secretly kept Jewish traditions behind locked closet doors for centuries.

[TaraP]

I was just wondering if you think there might be a difference between Hebrew DNA as one of the lost tribes of Israel, one of which I have read about being Native American Indians, as some Native American civilizations have had traditions of the Ancient Israelites...

Maybe there is just a difference between the religion of Judaism which has many branches currently today, Orthodox, Reform, Reconstructionist etc..and with Hebrew DNA and verifiable evidence of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel which is more of an inheritance and a culture that involves Torah and the true Israelites.

The 12 Tribes of Israel are located all over the planet so I assume that is more than the Gentile populations if DNA could of been proven since the Diaspora.

[ChicagoHebrew]

All Jews have very similar DNA (regardless of denomination - Orthodox, Reform etc.), except those who've intermarried in recent generations.

The Native Americans aren't "lost tribes" of Israel. Genetically, they are east Asian. They have nothing in common with any peoples from the Middle East, including Jews. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

In fact, there are no "lost tribes" of Israel. Assyrian records indicate that only 27,000 people were exiled. Most of the population was not exiled and assimilated into Judah when Judah reconquered the land of the Northern Kingdom during the reign of Josiah. Many of the rest became the Samaritans. Most Samaritans were killed over the succeeding centuries by the Jews, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs. Most of the remainder assimilated, and are one of bases for today's Palestinian population. A small number (about 600) still exist.

The 27,000 exiles from the Northern Kingdom form the basis for the Jewish communities in northern Iran, Kurdistan and Bukhara (central Asia), all of whom have traditions of being from so-called "lost tribes." Some of the rest intermingled with the Babylonian diaspora, and others just assimilated.

[TaraP]

You said:
All Jews have very similar DNA (regardless of denomination - Orthodox, Reform etc.), except those who’ve intermarried in recent generations.

So would that include Gentiles who converted to Judiasm generations ago? how would they have the same DNA? also what about Jews who have converted to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism? they would have the same DNA..

Just wondering how you could determine who’s DNA was similar in Judaism with so many Assimilations and Conversions to Judaism over thousands of years?

I ask of this because the Law of Return to Israel is that you are Jewish wether or not you practice the faith or not.
This would lend issue to many groups wether Ethiopian the Black Jews of your area Chicago could claim they are Jewish and if they could through DNA how many millions could return there?

I just was reading an article about the Jews of Japan, Iran, India all claiming to be one of the Lost Tribes.
Jews are not a race so as many Jews in the world today could trace DNA I assume by there Culture and Race, Black, Arab,Asian, Indian.

Or are you saying a Black Person, White Person,Semetic could all have the Same Hebrew DNA?

[TaraP]

This is what I found..If you have interest.
The finding of a common set of genetic markers in both Ashkenazi and Sefardi Kohanim worldwide clearly indicates an origin pre-dating the separate development of the two communities around 1000 C.E. Date calculation based on the variation of the mutations among Kohanim today yields a time frame of 106 generations from the ancestral founder of the line, some 3,300 years, the approximate time of the Exodus from Egypt, the lifetime of Aharon HaKohen..

The finding that less than one-third of the non-Kohen Jews who were tested possess these markers is not surprising to the geneticists. Jewishness is not defined genetically. Other Y-chromosomes can enter the Jewish gene pool through conversion or through a non-Jewish father. Jewish status is determined by the mother. Tribe membership follows the father’s line.

This genetic research has clearly refuted the once-current libel that the Ashkenazi Jews are not related to the ancient Hebrews, but are descendants of the Kuzar tribe—a pre- 10th century Turko-Asian empire which reportedly converted en masse to Judaism. Researchers compared the DNA signature of the Ashkenazi Jews against those of Turkish-derived people, and found no correspondence.
http://www.cohen-levi.org/the_tribe/kohanim_forever.htm

So it seems to be a copulation of DNA markers as well as conversions who could claim Jewishness...

[restornu]

Just a reminder that the tribe of Judah might not know or understand but...

All Jews are of Israel, but NOT all of Israel is of Judah!

There are other tribes and mainly the tribe of Joseph in the South America!

so as far as DNA markers etc at this time in histroy there is yet more to be answered until than there is NO final word!

[DelphiUser]

This is just going to be too much fun, especially since you come here calling everyone who disagrees with you an idiot.

All Jews have very similar DNA (regardless of denomination - Orthodox, Reform etc.), except those who've intermarried in recent generations.

See Where it says:

The Cohen hypothesis was first tested by Prof. Karl Skorecki and collaborators from Haifa, Israel, in 1997. In their study, "Y chromosomes of Jewish priests," published in the journal Nature,[2] they found that the Kohanim appeared to share a different probability distribution compared to the rest of the Jewish population for the two Y-chromosome markers they tested (YAP and DYS 19); and that furthermore the probabilities appeared to be shared by both Sephardi and Ashkenazi Cohens, pointing to a common Cohen population origin before the Jewish diaspora under the Roman empire.

In case you just don't understand, Geneticists disagree with you.

The Native Americans aren't "lost tribes" of Israel.

A rather strong claim to make just on your reputation and no supporting evidence.

Genetically, they are east Asian.

That is interesting, I have read studies that place them in Siberia, Asia, Rome, the Netherlands, actually, I am trying to think of a genome I haven't heard touted.

So how exactly did you determine that they all came from east Asia, and how did they get here?

Again, the lack of evidence supporting your assertion is well staggering in it's completeness (IE, you present nothing, and claim inescapable conclusions based on that)

They have nothing in common with any peoples from the Middle East, including Jews. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

Yeah well, do you know who Keith Crandall is? Keith is a population geneticist, in fact, he is one of the "guys" who proved the African tribe that claimed to be descended from the Jews were in fact related.

He was asked to look into the "Book of Mormon disproved by DNA" claims being made by anti Mormons. He decided to look into it because people were quoting his work and it might affect his credibility to have his name associated with shoddy work. He was not a member of the Church at that time. After performing an in depth analysis of both the Book of Mormon, and actual genetic studies he performed himself. Keith concluded that DNA did not disprove the book of Mormon, in fact there was Strong evidence fro the Book of Mormon in the DNA he studied from Mayan descendants. Keith was so impressed that he later joined the church and now heads up "The Crandall Lab" for BYU. So let's see, who are we to believe, a professor with many papers, awards who actually was one of the pioneers of population genetics or... Say what was your name again?

In fact, there are no "lost tribes" of Israel.

That's really funny, since one of my ancestors was left behind by the group as they traveled north (her diary was preserved because she married royalty, my mom bought a copy translated from the origional Hebrew), but hey you say they don't exist, and with your track record on this post so far, who could doubt you?

Assyrian records indicate that only 27,000 people were exiled.

Do you have a link for this tidbit of information? I'm not doubting you, just wondered if you had any backup what so ever, if not maybe I could help you find some.

Most of the population was not exiled and assimilated into Judah when Judah reconquered the land of the Northern Kingdom during the reign of Josiah.

Funny, that's not what the Bible says, where is your source? Oh yeah, you don't need one, why don't you use some of mine, this one says:

How many Israelites went into dispersion? McClintock & Strong's Encyclopaedia gives us the number of Israelites at the time of the captivity: "With regard to population... In 1 Chronicles ch.21 vv.5-6, the numbers (of fighting men) are stated at 1,100,000 (Israel) and 470,000 (Judah) respectively, with the intimation that Levi and Benjamin were not included... According to the general laws observable in such cases, these numbers may be said to represent an aggregate population of from five and a half to six millions..., it may be safely reckoned that the population subject to each king was about four times the number of the fighting men in his dominions." (5) Six million Israelites went out of the land of Palestine into captivity! Out of this large number, how many ever returned? The Bible itself provides us an answer to that question. In the book of Ezra ch.2 vv.1,64-65 we read: "Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity,... The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore. Beside their servants and their maids, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty and seven: and there were among them two hundred singing men and singing women."

The returning captives constituted a combined total of only 49,897 persons, or less than 8/10 of one percent of those dispersed! The remainder, nearly six million in 762BC, are still lost to recorded history.

Solid Biblical evidence therefore reveals that over 99% of God's chosen people were removed out of the land of Palestine in ancient times and thereafter lost to history. How could six million people become lost?

That was just the first page from a Google, I got almost 3 million hits, I'd be willing to wager a large percentage disagree with you, but I guess they are idiots too...

Many of the rest became the Samaritans.

The Samaritans were the descendants of the tribes of Israel who intermarried with those who were not Abraham's descendant's which is why the Jews looked on them as half breeds and not "real" Jews. Out of curiosity, where do you get this stuff?

Most Samaritans were killed over the succeeding centuries by the Jews, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs.

Actually, most people die over the succeeding centuries... how is really not important.

Most of the remainder assimilated, and are one of bases for today's Palestinian population. Have you ever met a Palestinian? They would be very upset to find out that they are descendants of the tribes of Israel, since they say they are descendants of Ishmael (the other son of Abraham). In fact the reason no one has ever "settled" the dispute int eh middle east boils down to that both sides agree that Abraham left Israel to his son along with the priesthood. The Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims claim to descend from Ishmael (the chosen son) while the Jews claim to descend from Issac (the chosen son) and the only "proof" is who is living on the land. IMHO, war there will never "end" until one side wipes out the other, or God comes down to settle the dispute himself.

A small number (about 600) still exist.

Source? I saw way more than 600 When I was over there in 2000...

The 27,000 exiles from the Northern Kingdom form the basis for the Jewish communities in northern Iran, Kurdistan and Bukhara (central Asia), all of whom have traditions of being from so-called "lost tribes." Some of the rest intermingled with the Babylonian diaspora, and others just assimilated.

I would really love to see some sources on this, My brother in law who runs tours over in the middle east for the church should get some of this information, he says they all claim to descend from Ishmael, but then, he's probably an idiot too, huh?

JFTR, I posted some videos earlier, I'll re-post them here, so you can watch them if you want to, they are by idiot professionals in the field of population genetics.

part 1 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
part 2 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA
Part 3 The Book of Mormon and New World DNA

Book of Mormon and DNA evidence

Then, there is my posting on "Does DNA from Indians prove anything about the Book of Mormon?"

And since you seem to have chosen a side in what is supposed to be a Caucus forum, please look at: Book of Mormon, being confirmed?

Calling people "idiots is never good form, and posting "stuff" that is "out of the mainstream" without any backup is just asking to be mocked. I do not care if you are a Hebrew in Chicago, or even of Jewish descent, Jews thought the Idea of Africans who were descended from them was preposterous too.

Instead of Mocking you, I'll just post a funny video that illustrates how people look discussing other people's religions on these forums sometimes, this one is from cheers: Why can't Mormons send flowers?

You have a great day and don't hurt yourself trying to reply, I'm gonna go for a walk...

[DelphiUser]

Dang, it stripped my link, here is the first link again: Where it says

[MHGinTN]

Do you have any idea how your posts come across, dripping with condescension and ridicule? Do you really presume that is a positive for mormonism?

[count-your-change]

Then the thread is open to those with Jewish ancestors?

[Tennessee Nana]

So how exactly did you determine that they all came from east Asia, and how did they get here?
_____________________________________________

Yes, the Native Americans are descended from Asian people who came over the “land bridge” from Russia to Alaska...

Even now you can walk across the ise for just 50 miles from Russia to Alaska...

It use to be all DIRT...

Next assinine comment ????

[Tennessee Nana]

I’m Jewish, BTW...

That’s HEBREW...

[Tennessee Nana]

Then the thread is open to those with Jewish ancestors?
_______________________________________________

Yes, it’s our Caucus...

[ChicagoHebrew]

In case you just don't understand, Geneticists disagree with you.

No, you just proved that you don't understand genetics. That study showed that Jewish priests, regardless of denomination (Orthodox, Sephardic, Reform etc.) tend to share the same y-chromosome. In case you don't understand, that supports my point. Other studies, such as Hammer's, showed that all Jews, regardless of where they are from (except for Ethiopians) share genetic markers and have similar y-chromosome distribution frequencies. In short, an Iraqi Jew has more in common genetically with a Polish Jew than either has with Polish or Iraqi gentiles.

A rather strong claim to make just on your reputation and no supporting evidence. Sure, how about every single study real scientists (not LDS lackeys) have done? They show East Asian, partially Siberian origins for Native Americans. There is no haplogroup or junk DNA similarity with Middle Eastern groups.

That's really funny, since one of my ancestors was left behind by the group as they traveled north (her diary was preserved because she married royalty, my mom bought a copy translated from the origional Hebrew), but hey you say they don't exist, and with your track record on this post so far, who could doubt you?

I'd like to see that "diary." If it existed, it would be 2700 years old. Not likely.

Do you have a link for this tidbit of information? I'm not doubting you, just wondered if you had any backup what so ever, if not maybe I could help you find some.

We have Assyrian cuneiform records. 27,290 people were exiled. That's it. Google it. You could probably find a picture or two of the actual cuneiform.

You have some "source" saying 6 million (based on some backhanded calculations, based on the Bible). Mazel tov. Those sources are wrong. Assyrian cuneiform says 27,290 people went into the Assyrian exile (the subsequent Babylonian Captivity was much larger). The Assyrians kept excellent records. Those records are supported by the Bible itself -- it notes that part of Israel found sanctuary in Judah and celebrated Passover under Hezekiah, and more found santuary during the reign of Josiah. That wouldn't have been possible if every man, woman and child was deported. But it fits in perfectly with what Assyrian records tell us: the upper classes and royalty were exiled, the common people were left on the land.

The Samaritans were the descendants of the tribes of Israel who intermarried with those who were not Abraham's descendant's which is why the Jews looked on them as half breeds and not "real" Jews. Out of curiosity, where do you get this stuff?

No, that's just what the Bible says. That part of the Bible is a political polemic, reflecting the hatred between Jews and Samaritans (it also says that the Samaritans are idol worshippers, which is false). The Samaritans themselves say that they descend from the common people who weren't exiled by the Assyrians. Genetics has showed that the Samaritans are right -- they are indistinguishable from Jews, at least on the male side. Google it. And yes, there are only 600 Samaritans left. Most live in Holon, a few are still in Nablus.

I would really love to see some sources on this, My brother in law who runs tours over in the middle east for the church should get some of this information, he says they all claim to descend from Ishmael, but then, he's probably an idiot too, huh?

You are saying that the Bukharan, northern Persian, and Kurdish JEWS think they descend from Ishmael?? You are wrong, very wrong. And I don't care what your brother in law says. I have known many Jews from Bukhara, northern Iran and Kurdistan. Most have longstanding traditions of being from the so-called lost tribes. Hell, just ask them. The Bukharan Jews in particular are quite proud of it.

[ChicagoHebrew]

So would that include Gentiles who converted to Judiasm generations ago? how would they have the same DNA? also what about Jews who have converted to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism? they would have the same DNA..

Genetics has proved that there has been practically no conversion among MEN, at least not for thousands of years, and then only from similar population groups (Edomites, Caananites etc.). That why different Jewish populations have such similar y-chromosome markers. There has been substantial conversion among women, although even this too ceased about 1000-1500 years ago. It's actually quite remarkable but true: genetically, Jews are still one population group -- even though some look European, and other look quite Arab.

Jews who converted out assimilated. It's one of the reasons that certain European populations show some "Jewish" genetic markers. For instance, a study that just came out shows that 20% of Spain has distinctively Jewish markers, indicating partial ancestry from Sephardic Jews.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/04/europe/gene.php

This would lend issue to many groups wether Ethiopian the Black Jews of your area Chicago could claim they are Jewish and if they could through DNA how many millions could return there?

Anyone who converts is eligible under the law of return. The Ethiopian Jews converted 2000 years ago, and have been Jews since. Genetically they don't resemble other Jews, but as a matter of Jewish law they are just as Jewish as me. And eligible under the law of Return. The "black Jews" in Chicago (who are really Christians) have not converted. And they are not eligible under the law of Return, although some have moved to Israel in other ways.

[DelphiUser]

Do you have any idea how your posts come across, dripping with condescension and ridicule? Do you really presume that is a positive for mormonism?

A what part of your "Don't post to me" request, and my response that "If you never posted to me or about Mormons, I will not respond to you" did you not understand?

Second when someone come onto a thread marked as a caucus and calls everyone in the caucus an idiot, I think condescension, sarcasm and ridicule are warranted. and I was just trying to mirror the tone he took with us, I guess I did a good job.

[fproy2222]

Do you think the way the research that was done that found no evidence that the Native Americans were descendants of Jews was done properly?

There is much written on why the study was bad, I would like to see something on why it was correct.

[DelphiUser]

DU: So how exactly did you determine that they all came from east Asia, and how did they get here?

---

TN: Yes, the Native Americans are descended from Asian people who came over the “land bridge” from Russia to Alaska...

Even now you can walk across the ise for just 50 miles from Russia to Alaska...

It use to be all DIRT...

That is the explanation I got for the supposed "the Indians descended from people from Siberia, did they walk together, maybe give each other piggy back rides? How exactly do you know they came that way from DNA?

Then there is the "well it's possible and it disagrees with your religion so that's got to be true!" line of reasoning. It is possible that I am your grandfather, that does not make it so.

BTW, we don't know that it used to be dirt, that is a theory, kind of like evolution, unproven, and designed to explain how people got to the Americas from over there (do you know what circular reasoning is, let me give you an example, the bearing strait is how people got here, since thy couldn't have built boats, followed by the people who were here had to have come across the bearing strait!)




Next assinine comment ????

Who does your hair?


(Anti Mormons never seem to have a sense of humor)

[Tennessee Nana]

LOL

Channeling Elsie...