Posted on 03/29/2009 3:25:06 PM PDT by stfassisi
“Effective contraception has only been around for the past 50 years or so”
That’s nonsense, P. Condoms have been around for centuries. Its conceivable that female condoms have been around even longer.
It seems to me you're not looking at the big picture on what contraception leads to.
It would be better if contraception was not or was ever available,like it or not.
It was reaffirming doctrine taught by EVERY Christian denomination since the beginning, K.
EVERY single one. The first departure from this continuous witness was the Anglican Lambeth conference of 1930. At that time, other Protestant bodies condemned it, and even Mahatma Gandhi, a Hindu, condemned it. Pope Pius XI condemned in the harshest possible terms.
Martin Luther condemned contraception roundly.
St. Paul, in several places, condemns something he calls pharmakeia. (The usual English translation is "sorcery".) Look it up: pharmakeia in his day involved the mixing of potions. One of the most frequent applications of those potions was contraception. (Abortion was another one.)
You should know that in Orthodoxy, matters of family planning by non abortifacient contraception are left to the couple in prayerful consultation with their spiritual father
Innovation, pure and simple.
Humanae Vitae was ill considered. It was a bad choice and the ramifications of that bad choice are, sadly, plain to see.
Humanae Vitae did not cause a 50% divorce rate, rampant promiscuity, and 1.5 million deaths due to abortion every year just in this country.
I have never disagreed with anything you've said as much as I disagree with this post, K. You are not defending the faith of the Fathers, nor the faith of the ancient church. You are defending a modern innovation and a derogation from the true Christian doctrine concerning sex.
2391 Some today claim a “right to a trial marriage” where there is an intention of getting married later. However firm the purpose of those who engage in premature sexual relations may be, “the fact is that such liaisons can scarcely ensure mutual sincerity and fidelity in a relationship between a man and a woman, nor, especially, can they protect it from inconstancy of desires or whim.”183 Carnal union is morally legitimate only when a definitive community of life between a man and woman has been established. Human love does not tolerate “trial marriages.” It demands a total and definitive gift of persons to one another.184
IN BRIEF
2392 “Love is the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being” (FC 11).
2393 By creating the human being man and woman, God gives personal dignity equally to the one and the other. Each of them, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity.
2394 Christ is the model of chastity. Every baptized person is called to lead a chaste life, each according to his particular state of life.
2395 Chastity means the integration of sexuality within the person. It includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery.
2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.
2397 The covenant which spouses have freely entered into entails faithful love. It imposes on them the obligation to keep their marriage indissoluble.
2398 Fecundity is a good, a gift and an end of marriage. By giving life, spouses participate in God's fatherhood.
2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
2400 Adultery, divorce, polygamy, and free union are grave offenses against the dignity of marriage.
I want a biblical scripture. Thanks.
No, I mean chemical contraception.
Church Fathers on contraception. Pay particular attention to the words of our father among the saints, John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople.
Your argument was that sex was for the purpose of procreation only, not mine.
Again, please provide a Biblical scripture. Thanks.
“No, I mean chemical contraception.”
That I agree with.
By the way, it never ceases to amaze me how Latins are as adept at proof texting the Fathers and getting it wrong as the proddies are at doing the same thing with scriptures.
Bottom line, C, Roman Catholics in the West abort at rates equal to or greater than other Christians and use contraceptives at greater rates, rather substantially greater than Orthodox Christians. Your priests also hand out communion to publicly promiscuous people living together in sin, apparently as long as they continue to breed. Frankly, I think turning a blind eye to that sort of conduct is far, far more damaging to society than allowing Faith informed family planning by married people. Apparently the Magisterium disagrees.
My argument is not that sex within a marriage is only for procreation.Martial sex is something sacred
It's up to God to decide if a life is created and not up to us to interfere with life through contraception
Good Night!
“Perhaps people should spend their energy in prayer rather than having meaningless sinful sex with multiple partners to selfishly please themselves.”
What you think you can’t be married more than once in life?
Goodnight.
Oh, yes, and the Bible says not to worry where the food is going to come from; God will provide it the way he provides it for even the sparrows, bla, bla, bla.
The end result is that you have millions of children starving to death all over the world. But (self-styled) "true" Christians, it seems, would rather have starving children than no children. How pathetic.
You wrote:
“Did you ever think that some women use “birth control” for reasons OTHER than birth control...”
Yeah, but only a small number at best, however. Most women use birth control BECAUSE it’s birth control.
“Most people I know practice contraception and are not militant about it at all. It’s a private issue.”
Many sins can be called private issues. That doesn’t make them any less sinful.
“Try to be charitable.”
Teaching the truth is ALWAYS charitable. Making excuses for ignoring it is not.
Uh, a small number you say? Like YOU’D know. Unless you are a gynecologist, then please spare me.
As for private, what I mean is that they are not militant, they are private. You say they are militant about it and I say they are private, but then you suddenly launch into this thing about private sins. Please try to focus, focus, focus.
As for teaching truth, well, you must think you have the corner on the market for absolute truth, eh?
You are, like so many, outwardly religious, based on your little posts, but when it comes to what Christ asks of us, to be humble and so on, that seems quite lacking.
Guess I just don’t claim to know ALL the answers. I also note that you mentioned nothing about my RC friend with MS.
I’m sure you know just how many women AND men in this country happen to prevent pregnancy due to illnesses, diseases, medications they are on that could deform the child, and so on and so on.
I’m sure you do.
So tell the drug companies pal, tell the drug companies. It’s STILL birth control. Maybe people don’t want everyone to KNOW their private medical conditions.
My brother, this might interest you: http://www.hli.org/seminariansforlifeinternational/sem_for_life_eastern_orthodoxy.html
Explain what? That there are medical conditions requiring hormones that equate to birth control? Or that people have medical conditions that could cause serious harm to self or child if they would conceive?
You can Google stuff for your self. There are numerous conditions - numerous. And also there are many meds people are on that cause birth defects so people choose not to become pregnant with a child they are pretty confident will have serious birth defects.
You can Google that too. Simple search - medications and birth defects. Duh.
Sorry to post you again but I would like to clarify some things for you.
I do believe what the scriptures say about a man’s quiver being full and that children are a blessing from God and that we should not prevent that. I believe God wants that for us.
I also believe that the world is imperfect and that people need drugs or have illnesses that could prevent pregnancy or cause serious harm to the baby.
This is why you militant anti-conception types drive me wacko. Not because I think you are wrong in your belief that conception is not what God wants but that you leave no room whatsoever for the exceptions and there are many millions, although you apparently choose not to learn about this.
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