Either Stop Contraception or Destroy the Family

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Family/Family_007.htm ^ | unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[hocndoc]

You’re reaching.

Wouldn’t you say that pain is only possible in the fallen world and a result of removal from and removal of the Lord?

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Uh, a small number you say? Like YOU’D know.”

Yeah, actually I would know.

“Unless you are a gynecologist, then please spare me.”

I’m not telling you my job, but I deal with this more often then you might expect in a very different line of work than what I had years ago. The last time it came up at my job was four or five days ago. No joke.

“As for private, what I mean is that they are not militant, they are private. You say they are militant about it and I say they are private, but then you suddenly launch into this thing about private sins. Please try to focus, focus, focus.”

You seem to be avoiding the basic point: contraception is sinful. Period. Whether or not people are privat or public about their sinfulness, or choice of sinfulness is immaterial as to whether or not the action is in itself sinful. You seem to think that keeping contraception quiet makes it okay as if working at Planned Parenthood alone makes it wrong.

“As for teaching truth, well, you must think you have the corner on the market for absolute truth, eh?”

No. All Christians, that’s ALL CHRISTIANS, denounced contraception until very recently in the history of Christianity. You might want to read the book, The Bible and Birth Control, which was written by a Protestant layman by the way. Provan, the author, does an especially good job of documenting what Protestants had thought of contraception since they started their sects in the 1500s. The complete and OVERWHELMING disgust shown by ALL Christians toward contraception until just a few decades ago is one of the things that made me realize just how unchristian contraception is. You, of course, have researched none of this, right?

“You are, like so many, outwardly religious, based on your little posts, but when it comes to what Christ asks of us, to be humble and so on, that seems quite lacking.”

You are, like so many, outwardly intelligent, based on your little posts, but when it comes to actually dealing with something, you become emotional and pretend the person you’re arguing with is less a Christian than you are. And of course, you do this in the same post where you accuse the other person of thinking he has “the corner on the market for absolute truth”. Wouldn’t that make you a hypocrite as well as ill informed? Yeah, it would.

“Guess I just don’t claim to know ALL the answers. I also note that you mentioned nothing about my RC friend with MS.”

I didn’t mention it because it was completely irrelevant to what I was addressing.

“I’m sure you know just how many women AND men in this country happen to prevent pregnancy due to illnesses, diseases, medications they are on that could deform the child, and so on and so on.”

Nope. And neither do you. What is known is that the number is small. Look at how many abortions are performed for “medical” reasons. It’s less than two or three percent. If the number of abortions for that reason is that small, then the number of contraceptive users using them for that reason would be proportional. Even Planned Parenthood has admitted that in the past.

“I’m sure you do.”

I’m sure I know more than you do. I’m also not a hypocrite. I’m far from perfect, but I’m not defending sin, making excuses for it or emotionally lashing out at those who actually defend Christian teaching. If you have a problem with any of that, then change. Your problems are your own.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Sorry to post you again but I would like to clarify some things for you.”

I don’t mind you posting to me. I won’t react to you with hypocrisy as you did to me.

“I do believe what the scriptures say about a man’s quiver being full and that children are a blessing from God and that we should not prevent that. I believe God wants that for us.”

Then oppose contraception.

“I also believe that the world is imperfect and that people need drugs or have illnesses that could prevent pregnancy or cause serious harm to the baby.”

If you believe the world is imperfect, then deal with the imperfection rather than making yourself god of this world through contraception.

“This is why you militant anti-conception types drive me wacko.”

I am not a “militant anti-conception types drive me wacko.” I am an orthodox Christian. I stand against evil because it is evil. You make allies with evil because you think it makes this “imperfect” world easier to cope with.

“Not because I think you are wrong in your belief that conception is not what God wants but that you leave no room whatsoever for the exceptions and there are many millions, although you apparently choose not to learn about this.”

Again, I know all about it and deal with it all the time. There are no exceptions in regard to evil. When a baby is deformed it’s okay to kill it then, right? Sure, R-I-G-H-T. And when someone gets really sick, it’s okay to euthanize that person, right? Exceptions, exceptions, exceptions.

[hocndoc]

He *blessed* them - the words are not that He “commanded” them.

[hocndoc]

See my post #61.

God is love. He is not pain. Absence or separation from Him is pain.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“He *blessed* them - the words are not that He “commanded” them.”

It is a blessing AND A COMMAND. It is an imperative, in the volitive mood, 2nd person. Imperatives are COMMANDS.

[RobbyS]

If the magisterium has lost credibility, it was because the people bought into a lie, which is that reproduction is an evil that threatens the world. That women must be free as men are free, and to be free of men. Forty years agoJudge John Noonan wrote a good study that examined the history of the church and contraception, call, Contraception His conclusion was that the Church's attitude had been ambiguous, or at least uncertain at times. But it was not long until he realized that the acceptance of contraception led to the acceptance of abortion, simply because its legalization is necessary if women are to have the perfect security, the final choice if contraception failed, as failk it often did. The Endlosung, as it were. Humanae Vitae predicted what has happend during the last 40 years, predicted the necessary consequence of our adoption of this worldview, and acceptance of the dogma that sex and reproduction ought to have nothing to do with one another. The easy availability of contractive methods, of the "safe" procedures for abortion, have simply overwhelmed what you prescribe as a viable method. We can control our appetitites only where there is scarcity, and there is no scarcity.

[RobbyS]

The tolerance of promiscuity goes hand in hand with the tolerance of contraception. When I was growing up you didn’t have girls in high school flaunting their big bellies. Rather there was a shame that kept them out of school.

[hocndoc]

Divide away.

[OneVike]

Thank you for coming to my defense. You are absolutely correct in your analysis.

I have been stuck over on the thread I posted about my article on Women's right to vote. It has been quite the hornets nest.

Women's Right to Vote, the Beginning of the End for America?

[Salvation]

**Conformity to Christ is the reward of those who humbly and joyfully accept His Cross **

And that Cross may mean bearing children.

Why are people so selfish that they do not want to share their love with children?

[Salvation]

Please read Ephesian 5; that should be enough to prove this point.

Ephesians
Chapter 5

1

So be imitators of God, ¹ as beloved children,

2

and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.

3

Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,

4

no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.

5

Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6

Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient. ²

7

So do not be associated with them.

8

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light,

9

for light produces every kind of goodness and righteousness and truth.

10

Try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.

11

Take no part in the fruitless works of darkness; rather expose them,

12

for it is shameful even to mention the things done by them in secret;

13

but everything exposed by the light becomes visible,

14

for everything that becomes visible is light. Therefore, it says: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." ³

15

⁴ Watch carefully then how you live, not as foolish persons but as wise,

16

making the most of the opportunity, because the days are evil.

17

Therefore, do not continue in ignorance, but try to understand what is the will of the Lord.

18

And do not get drunk on wine, in which lies debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

19

addressing one another (in) psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and playing to the Lord in your hearts,

20

giving thanks always and for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.

21

⁵ Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. ⁶

22

Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.

23

For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.

24

As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.

25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her

26

to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,

27

that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

28

So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

29

For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,

30

because we are members of his body.

31

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

32

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

33

In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.

[Salvation]

You are correct. Marriage is a contract AND a covenant.

[Salvation]

The praying hands of a family. Aren't they beautiful. People don't realize what they are missing!

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Divide away.”

There’s nothing wrong with correctly dividing scripture. And that’s what I am doing.

An imperative is a command.

[Kolokotronis]

It is indeed an interesting link, V. Thank-you. Do you know who this group is?

BTW, +Kallistos is a wonderful man who has done much to explain Orthodoxy to Western Christians. His books, however, tend to be the Cliffs Notes of Orthodoxy so take what he says with a grain of salt. He does keep trying to get it right, however. :)

[armydoc]

any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin

I would be interested in your defense of NFP in light of this statement.

[trisham]

Thank you for such a courteous reply. One rarely sees such good grace these days. My compliments to your parents.

[mockingbyrd]

Not Campion, but NFP does not involve the deliberate frustration of the sexual act. NFP works because at the time when a woman is capable of conceiving there is no act. Therefore, there is no act to frustrate. It's not that wanting to postpone or even prevent pregnancy is wrong. There are legitmate reasons to do so. It's the method by which it is done that is the moral question.

[stfassisi]

Perhaps this might help you

From St. Ignatius of Antioch-who was a direct disciple of the Apostle Saint John

If God gives you an abundant harvest of trials, it is a sign of the great holiness to which He desires you to attain. Do you want to become a great saint? Ask God to send you many sufferings. The flame of divine love never rises higher than when fed with the wood of the cross which the infinite charity of the Savior uses to finish His sacrifice. All the pleasures of the world are nothing compared with the sweetness found in the gall and vinegar offered to Jesus Christ, that is, hard and painful things endured for Jesus Christ and with Jesus Christ. Suffering endured for the love of Jesus Christ should be reckoned among God's greatest benefits-St. Ignatius of Antioch