Posted on 10/05/2009 11:22:44 AM PDT by Gamecock
An Italian scientist says he has reproduced the Shroud of Turin, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ's burial cloth is a medieval fake. The shroud, measuring 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches bears the image, eerily reversed like a photographic negative, of a crucified man some believers say is Christ. "We have shown that is possible to reproduce something which has the same characteristics as the Shroud," Luigi Garlaschelli, who is due to illustrate the results at a conference on the para-normal this weekend in northern Italy, said on Monday. A professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia, Garlaschelli made available to Reuters the paper he will deliver and the accompanying comparative photographs.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Both pics at Yahoo.
I know of no one who believes the Shroud is authentic whose faith would be weakened in the slightest if it could be definitively proved that it is a fake.
You just don’t get it. Those who believe it is genuine do so because of the EVIDENCE. Absent the overwhelming evdence in favor of authenticity, we’d say, “can’t be sure whether it’s a fake or not, so fugeddaboudit.” For most of its history that was the attitude of most people, including most devout Catholics and including the hierarchy.
But then new evidence, sriking evidence, came to light in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The shift from “ho-hum” to “man-alive, I think this just may be Jesus’ burial-shroud” came in DIRECT RESPONSE TO NEW SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE after 1900, especially in the last half of the 20th century.
This whole thing has always been evidence-driven. Some of those most strongly convinced of its authenticity were once skeptics who set out to prove it a fake. Many of them were and still are unbelievers.
I have offered you evidence why your snippy attitude is based on pre-judice rather than evidence. Have you ever even studied any of the evidence on this issue? Somehow I doubt it. But never let facts keep you from pontificating. It’s more fun to shoot from the hip.
“tested lava rocks formed”
Lava couldn’t be tested with C-14 (to my knowledge).
C-14 only works with something organic (or that used to be organic).
Have you seen this?
The answer is "no".
That's not the correct question, though. The correct question is why non-believers such as those who funded these "experiments", find relics to be such a challenge and go to such lengths to try and discredit them?
We may not need relics to support our faith but atheists certainly need to discredit them to support their lack of faith.
As for the Shroud itself, science proves nothing. If the Shroud was genuine then it would have been witness to an event unprecedented in the annals of human and natural history; the resurrection of a dead body.
What physical and scientific phenomena accompany such an event? Is light and/or radiation emitted? Could this impact dating methods used to assess the age of the Shroud? We simply don't know. If you think science has all the answers to the Shroud, you're wrong.
Science is investigating an event which went beyond the normal laws of nature. In these situations it is blind.
Then do so and post the results on FR. We'll wait.
As others have said, the carbon dating did not really prove anything when it was discovered that the small area that was tested was from a repair. A lay couple analyzed it and proved that the cloth had been rewoven.
You can Read a little about it here, and here. Google it yourself. I learned of this while watching a Discovery Channel special on this. I have no strong feelings on the shroud. It's an interesting story, whether fake or not. But the carbon dating proved nothing.
Geron,
Ruffian’s objections come from the same-old, same-old thinking that accuse Roman Catholics (and others) of “worshipping “ saints and relics. Because of his horror at this type of thing, he feels forced to take a stand against the Shroud of Turin, regardless of the evidence.
“Seems to me that your faith is somehow bothered by the potential that this cloth is what it purports to be.”
Hardly. I would love this cloth to be real.
But it appears to be fake, and setting up Christians whose faith is weak (and depends on these types of relics for verification) for a fall.
Please everyone note that there is a theory (well, maybe more than a theory at this point) that persuasively argues the C-14 sample came from an invisibly-rewoven area of the Shroud and contained medieval fibers which threw off the result:
http://www.shroudstory.com/shroud-of-turin-for-journalists.htm
Until this theory is completely disproven, a first-century date for the cloth is still very much on the table.
All I need is the Bible for my faith.
Yes, and I’m sure Ruffian’s house is totally disinfected of any and all reminders of his or her past—no letters, locks of hair, photographs, tools, watches, toys, keepsakes of any sort from his or her childhood or parents’ or grandparents’ lives. I’m sure he or she receives no meaning from something that some well-loved friend or relative once held or touched.
The powerful meaning held by things held by those we care about but who are no longer with us is pretty widespread and transcends religious beliefs. Animals don’t seem to value relics, so perhaps this is one of the fundamental human chacteristics.
So Ruffian can spit on it, but s/he’s spitting into the wind.
“This has nothing to do with being Christian or not as far as I know.”
Not according to some on this thread.
If you don’t believe the cloth bears the face of Jesus Christ, you’re doomed to Hell.
All we need is 3 or more believers to come together in the name of Jesus. We don’t need relics, ceremonies or any of the pomp and circumstance of modern churches.
Curious why the advisor would intentionally make a test potentially invalid. Looks like he was covering up for soemthing he knew:
“Instead, the scientific adviser to the Arch Diocese of Turin, Luigi Gonnella, decided to violate the protocol and allowed only one sample to be cut from an outside corner where it had been handled hundreds of times over the centuries as it was held up for public viewing.”
3 or more? I need two, that’s all!
lol.
Did someone add an addendum to the Bible lately?
The other thing is, C-14 dating is used to measure things is not nearly accurate enough to determine when the shroud was produced with any clarity.
Two believers short of a three-way
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