Posted on 01/16/2010 8:23:23 AM PST by Colofornian
This week's Bible study dealt with a question some Christian folks asked before the start of our meeting: “Can someone who has the Torah and lives obediently to it be saved if they don't accept Jesus as Savior?”
We approached this in three steps:
•What is meant by Torah observant?
•What is the difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”?
•What is meant by being saved as related to Messiah?
First, we discussed that being Torah observant means to obey the written word of Elohim, not the traditions of men that have come in and taken a place alongside His Word. To be Torah observant means to obey the commandments, judgments, statutes and instructions of Elohim as He gave them to Moshe (Moses) and subsequently recorded in the Torah.
Next we discussed if Yeshua taught that the Torah should be observed or obeyed? In Matthew 5:17 Yeshua said during His Sermon on the Mount:
“Do not think that I am come to destroy the law [Torah], or the prophets [Nevi'im]; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”
When someone teaches that “Jesus” did away with—destroyed—the Torah, they are saying in effect that He lied; when He actually said that He did not come to do away with the Torah. He said He came to fill up the Torah and Prophets with meaning and to interpret them correctly. The terms fulfill and destroy are rabbinical terms that mean to explain correctly or incorrectly respectively.
We see Yeshua filling up the meaning of the Written Word when He says in Matthew 5:21,22:
“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment. But I say to you...”
Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torah—and the commandments in it—places Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2:
“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them.’”
Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet:
“You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.”(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)
So when a person comes to a Torah follower and quotes “Jesus” as saying:
“...that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised...” (Luke 7:22b)
and at the same time says that “Jesus” did away with the Old Testament commandments—this is a red flag to the Torah observant believer. “Jesus”, according to Moshe, must then be a false prophet if He does signs and wonders and teaches not to keep the commandments in the Torah.
Second, is there a difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”? Do the two names identify the same person? “Jesus” (Ιησους) is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name “Yeshua” (ישוע). In this sense, it is the name in a non-native language for the same Person. But when it is contrasted that Yeshua of the New Testament kept the Torah, instructed His followers to keep the Torah, taught the Torah, and did all the signs and wonders—that's different.
The problem arises when the names “Jesus” and “Yeshua” are used interchangeably. On one hand, the modern church refers to their “Jesus” as a Prophet who annulled the Torah and taught their people not to follow the commandments in the Torah—thus this would make the “Jesus” that is usually taught by many Christian missionaries and teachers a false prophet according to the teachings of Moshe. The Torah explicitly warns the followers of YHVH not to listen to this kind of false prophet.
The third question is about the Messiah. Again, the name of “Jesus” is tied to the “Christian Christ.” Many Torah followers make a distinction between the “Christian Christ” and the “Jewish Messiah.” The “Jewish Messiah” is a central figure in biblical thought. Many of the figures in the TaNaKh (Old Testament) looked forward to and had faith in the coming Messiah. The binding of Isaac is a prime shadow of the Messiah. Abraham looked forward to the Messiah:
“God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” [See all of Genesis 22:8–14]
“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son...that Elohim was able to raise him from the dead...” (Hebrews 11:17 [OT Genesis 22:12])
“And the Scripture, foreseeing that Elohim would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 [OT Genesis 12:3])
“And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of Elohim.” (James 2:23 [OT Genesis 15:6])
As did Jacob:
“So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:30)
“The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.” (Genesis 49:10)
Job:
“For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;” (Job 19:25)
David:
“Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” (Psalm 45:6,7)
Ezekiel:
“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.” (Ezekiel 37:24)
Daniel:
“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9:25,26)
Jeremiah:
“Their Redeemer is strong; YHVH of hosts is His name. He will thoroughly plead their case, that He may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.” (Jeremiah 50:34)
Isaiah:
“Our Redeemer; YHVH of Hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel.” (Isaiah 47:4)
In the modern church the “Christ” often taught under the name of “Jesus” is not the “Jewish Messiah” of the Scriptures. The “Christian Christ”— “Jesus”—changed the unchangeable commandments, statutes and judgments of Elohim. He also violated the Torah, according to many teachers. If “Jesus” violated the Torah, then He sinned. If He sinned, He was not sinless. If He wasn't sinless, He was not a Perfect Sacrifice for our sins.
The real Messiah of the Scriptures—the “Jewish Messiah”—did not sin. He kept the Torah to the letter, He taught the Torah, and He was born, grew up, lived, died, and was raised again—a Torah-observant Jew.
So can a person be saved without “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ?” The answer we came up with in our study is—“yes”—if the question relates to the “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ” usually preached in the modern church.
But, can a person be saved without the “Jewish Messiah“—the Torah-observant Jew in the Scriptures Who is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Perfect Sacrifice for sin? No!
With this knowledge, according to the prophet Ezekiel, he points out in Ezekiel 18 that each person needs to set his life on-course based on what the Torah says. Excerpts from verses of this chapter state:
“But if a man be just, and does what is lawful and right...If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully—he is just; he shall surely live!...the soul who sins shall die...” Ezekiel 18:5,9,20.
Ezekiel continues in verse 20 that if the wicked person who repents—turns from his sin to righteousness—will live. But in verse 24 if the righteous person who turns from righteousness to wickedness—will die. The Hebrew word for righteous is tzadik (צדיק) meaning “straight,” as in the narrow way. And the word for wicked is rasha (רשע) meaning “off the path,” as in wide is the way that leads to destruction.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13,14)
In both Ezekiel and Matthew the life spoken of is more than physical existence. They are discussing Eternal Life, salvation. The gate by which we gain entrance to the path of salvation is the atonement of our Sacrifice Yeshua. The path of salvation is obedience to the commandments, judgments and statutes of Elohim.
It is up to each of us to choose our path in life, the way of the world or the way of Elohim. If you choose to follow the Elohim of the Bible—which “Messiah” will you follow—the fabled Torah-denying Christ of the modern church who, according to Moshe and the Torah, was a false prophet and leads to eternal death and separation from YHVH our Elohim. Or, the Torah-observant Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah)—the true “Jewish Messiah” prophesied in the Old Testament and Whose earthly life is recorded in the New Testament—and Who provides eternal life as the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins—the only path for salvation.
“Yeshua said to him, ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’“ (John 14:6)
Yes, God is limited by His Word.
When He makes a Covenant by His Word, He is bound to keep it.
Everlasting condemnation in the Lake of Fire.
There are plenty of Hebrews who were not saved. There were even priests who were not believers. There will remain, though, a remnant of Jews who are believers through faith in Christ, even after the Holy Spirit is removed from the Church Age.
A place of everlasting torment that makes this place look like heaven: http://www.scribd.com/doc/24441270/The-Darvaza-Well
None; this is from the Shem Tov Matthew:
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Our father in heaven
may your name be sanctified
may your kingdom be blessed
your will shall be done in heaven and on earth
give us our bread continually
forgive us the debt of our sins
as we forgive the debt of those who sin against us
do not bring us into the hands of a test
and protect us from all evil
amen
Good Q: From sin; From a second death; From the fear of death; From bondage to Satan.
We can teach what we believe but I believe in a Merciful God. The premise is that if you don’t accept Jesus as your Savior that you will not be saved. Does that mean that all the people prior to Jesus will not be saved by God? Does that mean people in remote tribes that have never heard of Jesus will not be saved? I don’t know but that isn’t my decision... That is God’s decision.
You've got a sharp eye.
It's because of what the author says earlier in the article: Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torah—and the commandments in it—places Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2: “If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them.’” Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet: “You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.”(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)
You see to the Jew who has heard Christians as saying the Law has been annulled, and that this "Christianized" version of this Jesus is responsible for this, well then they immediately apply that to mean that Jesus could only be a false prophet -- for a true signs and wonder-worker would advise people to also "keep His commandments and obey His voice" as it says in Deut. 13.
Therefore, some Messianic Jews think that these Law-annulling Christians believe in a cultural Christ -- thus the author says: the modern church refers to their “Jesus” as a Prophet who annulled the Torah and taught their people not to follow the commandments in the Torah—thus this would make the “Jesus” that is usually taught by many Christian missionaries and teachers a false prophet according to the teachings of Moshe. The Torah explicitly warns the followers of YHVH not to listen to this kind of false prophet.
Thus, that is NOT a characteristic of the Jewish Messiah. Bottom line is, they are wanting to remain true to the word of God (Deut. 13).
And we all know that cultures throughout time and throughout the world have tended to redefine aspects of Jesus -- some so much so that He's no longer recognizable (even the Corinthian church did this to such a radical extent that the apostle Paul referenced how they had departed from their devotion to the true Jesus to another Jesus -- see 2 Cor. 11:3-4).
Messianic Jews are simply attempting to retain defining Him through the filter of the Old Testament expectation of the Messiah.
Why should the name Yeshua be preferred over Jesus since a contrast was drawn between the the two as though two different individual are being spoken of?
If you feel Yeshua is a more correct form for person name of the Messiah, it's up to you to explain why. Clearly the exact pronunciation of names from the Scriptures is not known.
Romans2:12-17 pretty much covers it!
This merciful God you believe in has promised to throw Satan into a lake of fire for all eternity. Do you think he will not do this because he is benevolent? I don’t believe God will break his words to his creation nor to himself.
I'd rather hang out with Thomas Jefferson and Jimmy Hendrix than losers like Martin Luther and John Calvin.
I'd imagine that if the Christian vision of heaven is true, everyone in heaven probably has an excrement-eating Joel Osteen type grin on their face, where you praise the dear Leader 24-7. It would be like going to a really lame party.
Well, I said Jewish, not messianic...unless of course you mean moshiach, as annointed in the sense of David, Solomon et al, past and to come, though with no sense of divinity.
There is nothing to joke about. It is forever.
How do you know? Have you been there?
Having said that, you assert that "Yeshua" is not correct. You did not offer the "correct" name. So, what is it, do you think?
"Ιησους"
It's what we have in the source documents.
And what does your pastor preach to you from the Bible (the first 3/4 of which, of course, is the sacred book of the Jews and existed for hundreds of years before Jesus was born)?
Or is your pastor silent on this topic?
Just curious.
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