Can a Person Be Saved Without Jesus?

House of Yeshua ^ | September 2009 | Jon Thompson

[Colofornian]

This week's Bible study dealt with a question some Christian folks asked before the start of our meeting: “Can someone who has the Torah and lives obediently to it be saved if they don't accept Jesus as Savior?”

We approached this in three steps:

•What is meant by Torah observant?

•What is the difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”?

•What is meant by being saved as related to Messiah?

First, we discussed that being Torah observant means to obey the written word of Elohim, not the traditions of men that have come in and taken a place alongside His Word. To be Torah observant means to obey the commandments, judgments, statutes and instructions of Elohim as He gave them to Moshe (Moses) and subsequently recorded in the Torah.

Next we discussed if Yeshua taught that the Torah should be observed or obeyed? In Matthew 5:17 Yeshua said during His Sermon on the Mount:

“Do not think that I am come to destroy the law [Torah], or the prophets [Nevi'im]; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

When someone teaches that “Jesus” did away with—destroyed—the Torah, they are saying in effect that He lied; when He actually said that He did not come to do away with the Torah. He said He came to fill up the Torah and Prophets with meaning and to interpret them correctly. The terms fulfill and destroy are rabbinical terms that mean to explain correctly or incorrectly respectively.

We see Yeshua filling up the meaning of the Written Word when He says in Matthew 5:21,22:

“You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment. But I say to you...”

Since Elohim said that His people are to keep His commandments forever (Exodus 31:16, Leviticus 16:31, 23:21), to say that Jesus did away with the Torah—and the commandments in it—places Him in the category that Moshe taught in Deuteronomy 13:1,2:

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them.’”

Moshe cautioned not to believe that prophet:

“You shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for YHVH your Elohim is testing you to know whether you love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after YHVH your Elohim and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.”(Deuteronomy 13:3,4)

So when a person comes to a Torah follower and quotes “Jesus” as saying:

“...that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised...” (Luke 7:22b)

and at the same time says that “Jesus” did away with the Old Testament commandments—this is a red flag to the Torah observant believer. “Jesus”, according to Moshe, must then be a false prophet if He does signs and wonders and teaches not to keep the commandments in the Torah.

Second, is there a difference between “Jesus” and “Yeshua”? Do the two names identify the same person? “Jesus” (Ιησους) is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew name “Yeshua” (ישוע). In this sense, it is the name in a non-native language for the same Person. But when it is contrasted that Yeshua of the New Testament kept the Torah, instructed His followers to keep the Torah, taught the Torah, and did all the signs and wonders—that's different.

The problem arises when the names “Jesus” and “Yeshua” are used interchangeably. On one hand, the modern church refers to their “Jesus” as a Prophet who annulled the Torah and taught their people not to follow the commandments in the Torah—thus this would make the “Jesus” that is usually taught by many Christian missionaries and teachers a false prophet according to the teachings of Moshe. The Torah explicitly warns the followers of YHVH not to listen to this kind of false prophet.

The third question is about the Messiah. Again, the name of “Jesus” is tied to the “Christian Christ.” Many Torah followers make a distinction between the “Christian Christ” and the “Jewish Messiah.” The “Jewish Messiah” is a central figure in biblical thought. Many of the figures in the TaNaKh (Old Testament) looked forward to and had faith in the coming Messiah. The binding of Isaac is a prime shadow of the Messiah. Abraham looked forward to the Messiah:

“God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” [See all of Genesis 22:8–14]

“By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son...that Elohim was able to raise him from the dead...” (Hebrews 11:17 [OT Genesis 22:12])

“And the Scripture, foreseeing that Elohim would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, In you all the nations shall be blessed.” (Galatians 3:8 [OT Genesis 12:3])

“And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed Elohim, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of Elohim.” (James 2:23 [OT Genesis 15:6])

As did Jacob:

“So Jacob called the name of the place Peni'el, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:30)

“The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people.” (Genesis 49:10)

Job:

“For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;” (Job 19:25)

David:

“Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” (Psalm 45:6,7)

Ezekiel:

“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

Daniel:

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9:25,26)

Jeremiah:

“Their Redeemer is strong; YHVH of hosts is His name. He will thoroughly plead their case, that He may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.” (Jeremiah 50:34)

Isaiah:

“Our Redeemer; YHVH of Hosts is His name, the Holy One of Israel.” (Isaiah 47:4)

In the modern church the “Christ” often taught under the name of “Jesus” is not the “Jewish Messiah” of the Scriptures. The “Christian Christ”— “Jesus”—changed the unchangeable commandments, statutes and judgments of Elohim. He also violated the Torah, according to many teachers. If “Jesus” violated the Torah, then He sinned. If He sinned, He was not sinless. If He wasn't sinless, He was not a Perfect Sacrifice for our sins.

The real Messiah of the Scriptures—the “Jewish Messiah”—did not sin. He kept the Torah to the letter, He taught the Torah, and He was born, grew up, lived, died, and was raised again—a Torah-observant Jew.

So can a person be saved without “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ?” The answer we came up with in our study is—“yes”—if the question relates to the “Jesus” or the “Christian Christ” usually preached in the modern church.

But, can a person be saved without the “Jewish Messiah“—the Torah-observant Jew in the Scriptures Who is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Perfect Sacrifice for sin? No!

With this knowledge, according to the prophet Ezekiel, he points out in Ezekiel 18 that each person needs to set his life on-course based on what the Torah says. Excerpts from verses of this chapter state:

“But if a man be just, and does what is lawful and right...If he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully—he is just; he shall surely live!...the soul who sins shall die...” Ezekiel 18:5,9,20.

Ezekiel continues in verse 20 that if the wicked person who repents—turns from his sin to righteousness—will live. But in verse 24 if the righteous person who turns from righteousness to wickedness—will die. The Hebrew word for righteous is tzadik (צדיק) meaning “straight,” as in the narrow way. And the word for wicked is rasha (רשע) meaning “off the path,” as in wide is the way that leads to destruction.

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13,14)

In both Ezekiel and Matthew the life spoken of is more than physical existence. They are discussing Eternal Life, salvation. The gate by which we gain entrance to the path of salvation is the atonement of our Sacrifice Yeshua. The path of salvation is obedience to the commandments, judgments and statutes of Elohim.

It is up to each of us to choose our path in life, the way of the world or the way of Elohim. If you choose to follow the Elohim of the Bible—which “Messiah” will you follow—the fabled Torah-denying Christ of the modern church who, according to Moshe and the Torah, was a false prophet and leads to eternal death and separation from YHVH our Elohim. Or, the Torah-observant Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah)—the true “Jewish Messiah” prophesied in the Old Testament and Whose earthly life is recorded in the New Testament—and Who provides eternal life as the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins—the only path for salvation.

“Yeshua said to him, ‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’“ (John 14:6)

[Jack Black]

There are plenty of Hebrews who were not saved. There were even priests who were not believers. There will remain, though, a remnant of Jews who are believers through faith in Christ, even after the Holy Spirit is removed from the Church Age.OK, but are there any, who do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, who will be saved. Not "left behind" to form the remnant, but, for instance already dead and in heaven due to following God's instructions for the Jews?

[reaganaut]

Romans2:12-16 (pretty straight forward)...

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

16This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[LadyDoc]

ah yes, no man cometh to the father except through Jesus.

But at the last judgement, when non Christians ask: And when did we give you drink or food, Christ will say if you did it for the least of my brethren you do it for me.

Jesus can save those who don’t know him if they are trying to serve the Father as best they know how.

[Ezekiel]

God is by nature TRUTH.

Yes.

Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:

No. God is One. He kept emphasizing this but who listens. The Jews haven't fallen for the man-god trinity. And true prophets were abused/run off/slain for failing to deliver happy-happy-joy-joy messages. Nothing new under the sun.

The false prophets of christianity operate the same as the MSM - what is the truth and what is claimed by the "reporters" are two different things.

Torah is truth and is the foundation of the universe which was *spoken* into existence by God. Action. Reaction. Reflexive action. Passive = "fallen". Etc. The seven binyanim of wisdom, as it were.

[philetus]

Jesus can save those who don’t know him if they are trying to serve the Father as best they know how.”

I don’t see how anyone can truly be “trying to serve the Father as best they know how” and not know Jesus.

I think I’ll believe God and not men.

Romans 1

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

amplified:

18For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.

19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.

20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)

[plsjr]

You dismiss the Gospels; I consider them documentation of the fulfillment of the Torah and the story of salvation for both Jews and Gentiles.

We will each find out who is right when we die.
My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.

[Tzfat]

"Ιησους"

So, you are saying that His name is "Ιησους" - how does that become "Jesus"? What language did the people of Galilee speak in the First Century?

[andersbranderud]

How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His foregivness is outlined in Tan’’kh ( the Jewish Bible) ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Mashiakh; the Messiah) (His teachings are found here: www.netzarim.co.il )

Tan’’kh – for example Yekhëzqeil (Hezekiel) 18 – promises foregiveness to those and only those who do their sincerest to keep the mitzwot (directive or military-style orders ) in Torah. The Creator cannot lie and He does not change (Malakhi 3:6)!

Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh lived and kept Torah with the sincerest of his heart, died innocently and became a sacrifice. Because of that the Creator can give His foregiveness for the short comings (in keeping Torah) to everyone doing his/her sincerest to keep His instructions found in Torah, and to everyone turning away from their Torah-breaches to instead starting to do their sincerest to keep the instructions in Torah.

Living in the above described way until one dies implies that the Creator will continue to give His forgiveness during one’s whole life, which will keep ones nephesh (psyche) in a connection with the Creator, which will lead to ha-olam haba (which Christians would call “heaven”). While not living in the above described way, according to Yekhezeqeil, won’t lead to ha-olam haba.

Thus the Christian doctrine found in Joh 14:6 contradicts Torah.

Anders Branderud

[count-your-change]

No, I don't speak Hebrew but I wonder if you know exactly what and how the vowel pointing was pronounced?

Whether Yeshua, Yeshuwa,Yhowshua, or Yeshoshua. all are variants of the same name and how they were sounded out is not known for certain, so the use of the familiar English pronunciation “Jesus” makes sense.

“Would you say that the Arabic word “Allah” is the same as the Almighty of the Bible?”

No.

[Lee N. Field]

"Ιησους"

So, you are saying that His name is "Ιησους" - how does that become "Jesus"?

No, I'm saying that's what we have.

The Holy Spirit saw fit to produce the New Testament documents in Koine Greek, through the hands of the various writers. It becomes "Gee-zus" through a quirk of the English language. Most places, it's something close to "Yay-soo".

Unless one is a native Hebrew speaker, obsessing about using "Yeshua" is a bit odd.

What language did the people of Galilee speak in the First Century?

Aramaic and Greek.

[Tzfat]

Unless one is a native Hebrew speaker, obsessing about using "Yeshua" is a bit odd.

Odd to you maybe. So tell me, why does the name "Yehoshua" get tranliterated into "Joshua" and the name "Yeshua" get translitereded into "Jeshua" - and yet the same transliteration rules do not apply to "Yeshua"? Could it be that it is OK for "Old Testament" names to sound Semitic, but "New Testament" names aren't supposed to sound that way?

Now since are so insistent that we use the Greek source, can you explain to me why the writer of the book of "James" is called "James"? The Greek isn't even close. If you would check your premise for just a moment, and look it up, you will see why GEEESUS is prefered by so many to "Yeshua" - because the later is just too JOOOISH, just like "Jacob" is too JOOISH for the Master's half brother.

[StolarStorm]

Silliness. God is unlimited. This is all just an example of the arrogance of man.

[Eagle Eye]

You really need to do some personal research on what the words "I am" mean in each of those contexts instead of regurgitating error ridden lessons you've been taught.

Simply put, if Jesus = God then there cannot be any differences.

But the differences between God and Jesus are abundant, therefore Jesus does not equal God.

Was God born? No Jesus was.

Can God be tempted with evil? No, but Jesus was.

Did God tell people that Jesus was his begotten son in which he was well pleased? Yes. Do you think God knows who he is and who Jesus is? I'd say so....so why would you argue with God Almighty?

[PSYCHO-FREEP]

Anyone who denies the event that occurred on Calgary and the undeniable law that was established there will suffer the same eternal fate as the Pharisees.

the Old Testament no longer applies. Fire and Brimstone has left the Earth on that day that the sins of the World were cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It is written from that day forward that no man shall enter the kingdom of Heaven except through him.

There is not much more to interpret here.

[PSYCHO-FREEP]

You are referring to the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are one and the same. And yes, Jesus is God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. (Al Shadai)

You must not understand clearly what the bible teaches.

[Ezekiel]

You dismiss the Gospels

That is what you claim.

We will each find out who is right when we die.

That you are waiting for the truth to hit you after you die doesn't mean others are. You believe that you won't know until you die, yet you go ahead and teach. Not exactly credible.

My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.

In a universe run on truth and order, things must make sense. Opposites are not the same. Three does not equal one and so forth. Truth is its own defense and does not require a false sense of security in numbers.

[Eagle Eye]

You say that God is Three while the Bible says that God is One.

You say that Jesus is God while the Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God.

You say that there is a Holy Trinity while the Bible says nothing about any trinity.

God said that Jesus was his son.

The Bible says that God is invisible, yet Jesus was seen by many.

The Bible says that Jesus was born, Jesus lived, Jesus was tempted, Jesus died, and then God raised Jesus from the dead.

The Bible says that Jesus is seated at God’s right hand.

You seem to say that the words Jesus and God are interchangable, that there is no difference in the beings they represent.

Your opinions are not borne out in the Bible.

All it takes is one difference between Jesus and God and they are not the same.

[plsjr]

[plsjr:] You dismiss the Gospels
[Ezekiel:] That is what you claim.

In your first post, you wrote:
[plsjr:] Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:
[Ezekiel:] No. God is One.

In the Gospels (no condescention intended when write for clarification that I believe you understand “the Gospels” are the first four books of the Christian Bible), Jesus’ disciples document His acts and words including where He identifies Himself as the savior prophesied in fulfillment of the scriptures and correlates Himself with the Creator.

You counter my statement: “Jesus stated he was the "I AM", meaning He was God:” saying “No. God is One.”.

Please explain to me why you wrote "That is what you claim". as opposed to either explaining what you meant or admitting my assertion that you deny the Gospels is true. (Parsing words betrays the intent to confuse and deceive – if that was your purpose, your forthrightness in this discussion is suspect.)

Also, from your first post:
[Ezekiel:] He kept emphasizing this but who listens. The Jews haven't fallen for the man-god trinity. And true prophets were abused/run off/slain for failing to deliver happy-happy-joy-joy messages. Nothing new under the sun.

By “He” I infer you mean God, and yes, in the Old Testament The Lord exhaustively identifies Himself (through His prophets) as the One True Living God. I believe He does this to differentiate His existence from the lack of existence of other human gods and from Satan and his minions. Regardless, God’s prophets also spoke of His Son who will rule as king:

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
and
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

As far as "happy-happy-joy-joy messages" are concerned, this thread asks the question at the heart of the Gospel and is no joyful message for those who turn away (but IS a joyous message for those who have accepted and will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior).
Christ's desciples were abused/run off/slain for delivering their message of doom for the unaccepting, does that make them true prophets?

A question derives from your reference to the Jews in the third person: are you a contrarian, a Jew, a Diest, or an Islamist, or what (some of your other posts seem to support and derive from Judaism)?

[plsjr:] We will each find out who is right when we die.
[Ezekiel:] That you are waiting for the truth to hit you after you die doesn't mean others are. You believe that you won't know until you die, yet you go ahead and teach. Not exactly credible.

I'm not waiting in order to find out; in my faith I know Heaven is my destination. You should have understood that, and with my next statement "My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker..", you are the one straining credibility with the inference that I doubt.
I'm seeking God (and Jesus / the Holy Spirit) to do His will.
I’m concerned about your and others' incredulity because I believe God wants as many of His people as possible to accept His offer of salvation - He wants me among the many in His Church to encourage its acceptance.

[plsjr:] My prayer is that neither of us find we were wrong when/if we meet our Maker.
[Ezekiel:] In a universe run on truth and order, things must make sense. Opposites are not the same. Three does not equal one and so forth. Truth is its own defense and does not require a false sense of security in numbers.

Who’s” truth and order”, who’s “sense” applies, God’s or yours? I’m not worthy to presume my sense of right and wrong equal to God’s.
I have no problem believing God is capable of anything that is good, and no problem accepting that there is more than one element to His being.
I’m not the one obsessing about numbers.

Are you sure it’s not you seeking the security of the number ‘One’ to deny the deity prophesied about and claimed by Jesus Christ and the salvation it can provide you?

[Tzfat]

Anyone who denies the event that occurred on Calgary and the undeniable law that was established there will suffer the same eternal fate as the Pharisees

Wow. There you go with that Canada thing again. What's up? Are you being sarcastic? As for the "same eternal fate as the Pharisees" - you mean Pharisees like Joseph of Aramathea? Or Nicodemus? Or Paul? Spend some time actualy reading the Bible quit with the theological spew.

[Tzfat]

(Al Shadai) You must not understand clearly what the bible teaches.

Who is "Al Shadai"? If you don't read Hebrew, don't pretend that you do. "Al" is an Arabic root, not Hebrew. Unless you meant some guy named "Al" - maybe that explains it?