Posted on 03/12/2011 2:58:25 PM PST by betty boop
I’d say at least 160 years . . . though maybe under different labels.
Some folks say for 400 years.
I don't know how the soul could ever be considered as "separate" from the body during its mortal existence. What I do know is based on observation: A corpse is clearly no longer a living body. Something has "gone out of it." And that something seems to be the difference between a living person and a dead body. Whatever that "something" is, its "departure" places the physical body fully and irreversibly under the control of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust."
Or am I observing an "illusion?"
A wise man once said, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." I do not know what form the resurrection takes, although our tradition tells us that it is resurrection in the form of a "glorified" body. If so, I really don't see why a soul "separated" at death cannot in principle be "reconnected" to a glorified body when resurrection takes place. God alone knows these details. To me, it is not the manner or the form the resurrection takes that is important, but that it does take place. Jesus Christ Himself is our proof that this is so.
Of course there is ambiguity in the New Testament on this issue. As Francis Schaeffer put it, "God tells us truthfully, but not exhaustively." Which is to say that we do not fully know what God knows, nor can we. Ever.
I sense — perhaps incorrectly — that you believe the Christian doctrine of soul was distorted by the absorption of Greek thought into Christian theology, and that the only true doctrine of soul was pretty much buried by these "super-added" materials after the first or second century A.D. That is, only the very Early Church was the "authentic" church, and everything since is a distortion or deformation of authentic Christian belief and practice.
To pursue that line of thinking, however, would probably sink us into long-standing doctrinal disputes existing between the Roman Church and the various denominations of Reformed Church. I am not the least interested in engaging in any such dispute. Of all things, I pray God to heal the divisions of the holy Body of Christ, to stop Christians from "quarreling" with one another, so we can stand together to face our common Enemy — who loves us to be engaged in such "disputes." They only prove that we have turned our faces away from our Lord....
As for myself, I just believe that Saint Justin Martyr was right: The Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ was the fulfillment, not only of the Patriarchs and Prophets of Judaism, but also of classical Greek philosophy.
Just some thoughts, dear ModelBreaker. FWIW. Thank you ever so much for your deeply sensitive and moving essay/post!
“That is, only the very Early Church was the “authentic” church, and everything since is a distortion or deformation of authentic Christian belief and practice.”
Well, not the very early Church per se—there were a lot of strange notions developed in the early church. And you can see much effort by Paul in the Epistles to get them straightened out. I meant Jesus Christ and the Apostles. I’m not a sola scriptura guy simply because the Holy Spirit is given to us. OTOH, John is really clear at the end of Revelation about what he thinks about adding to and subtracting from scripture. So I do believe that scripture is the number-one-with-a-bullet standard against which to judge doctrine. That keeps us from mistaking the Holy Spirit for our own ideas.
When we read scripture, we have to read it from the perspective of the authors, who were all second temple Jews and used words and ideas in that context. Especially Paul, Luke and James, who were fervent, observant and highly educated Jews. E.g., Paul spoke the language and thought the ideas of the Pharisees because he was a high-ranking Pharisee. Neither Paul nor the Pharisees (nor the Saducees) were very clear (or appeared to be very interested) in what happened between death and our rebirth with our resurrection bodies. (In fact, we have almost no information about what Jesus did between the crucifixion and the resurrection.)
The idea of a soul that goes down into the body at birth and then flits off at death is a Greek notion that was quite alien to second temple Jews. Those were not ideas the Apostles grew up with and we should be very careful about reading them into their words unless they are very clear about it.
So at least in our household, when my son asks what happens after we die, I tell him that eventually we are going to get wonderful resurrection bodies and live for eternity in the New Earth. On that, I think all Christian denominations should agree. But what happens between death and then is not at all clear.
It may be there is some conscious continuity between death and our resurrection. As you say, something leaves the body at death. And certainly the martyrs demanding justice before the throne suggests that there is continued consciousness at least for some of us. But whether we regain consciousness before our resurrection is not a question God chose to answer. “I don’t know” is a perfectly OK answer and I’m always suspicious about filling in big blank spaces like that with human doctrine.
Thanks for your response. I didn’t mean to write this much. That’s just how it came out.
Dear brother in Christ, are you dating this back to Darwin? Or maybe Marx? Or in the 400-year scenario, back to — whom?
Please, please — details!
BTW, it’s nice to communicate with someone who can use Martyr correctly as a proper noun and even quote him!
THANKS FOR YOUR PINGS AND FINE POSTS on this thread.
And the way it came out was just — beautiful.
We have no quarrel in these matters, dear brother in Christ.
Which is good; since we both confess that we have no direct knowledge of them anyway.
So here is an idle question: Did not Paul also speak Greek? (That's a serious question for the simple reason that I don't know the answer to it.) Paul was not just a highly cultured Jew, he was also a Roman citizen — and presumably aware of Rome's "intellectual culture," which was at the time largely classical Greek.
And don't forget it was Paul who first "gave up on" the Jews, and then took his evangelization directly to "the Greeks."
God's plan infallibly continues....
Thank you oh so very much for your outstanding essay/post, dear ModelBreaker!
The quotes I often post . . . one is from 160 years ago in I think a novel.
Another is from 110 years ago.
I don’t have the link back 400 years.
The 400 year reference is basically saying that the ruling wealthy families—most from the old Roman Empire . . . have maintained and greatly added to their wealth and POWER and have long been working toward a global tyrannical government in league with satan.
About 30 families control 90% or so of the world’s banks and about 30 families control 90% or so of the major media in the world.
Here’s some of the links on such quotes:
N.W.O. QUOTES POST, Latest QX post NWO QUOTES ON FR:
.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2624713/posts?page=153#153
.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2475963/posts?page=60#60
.
colorful NWO QUIXICATION of quotes:
.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2624713/posts?page=153#153
You offered, “Something about the marital union tells us something about God.” I will have to disagree with the line of reasoning, because marriage union is likened to our relationship with The Christ (not in sexual terms of course), but the relation of God’s three aspects to Himself is not comparable to marriage.
Dear ModelBreaker, reflecting further on your last post, I think the question you actually proposed may have been: Is there continuity of personal consciousness between death and resurrection? But you already answered your own question, when you said: "In fact, we have almost no information about what Jesus did between the crucifixion and the resurrection."
To me, this is the real problem of the "God of the gaps." Because we cannot know what Jesus experienced in this interval, there is no possible way for us humans ever to explain what happens to us when we are in similar circumstances; that is "in the tomb."
The Good News Is: Our Lord rose and returned to us in a glorified body, and He was perfectly "conscious." He was Himself — Son of God, Logos, Alpha and Omega. That is, the "tomb experience" did not defeat Him.
And we are made in His image and reflection....
All thanks and praise be unto God!
My idea seems to be consistent with yours but, maybe not. There is one reality. However, that reality, like the blind men describing an elephant, has many different ways to view it.
COLTON
IN
HEAVEN IS REAL
Has a lot worth considering on the topic.
Thanks dear brother in Christ! Will go check your links ASAP.
I think you’ve read some of at least one of them before.
Heading for a nap.
Blessings,
Outstanding line, RJR.
I post this to you two because I bought both your books a while backand I greatly respect you.
The crux of the New Testament is the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection combination. Although the story cannot be fragmented the part that resonates most with me is the Passion of the Crucifixion. This is truly a story of Love.
Jesus basically came from nowhere, though His coming was prophesied and the angels spoke to the shepherds in the field at night, directing them to follow the star to his birth site. The shepherds, Kings, Wise Men or whomever. spread the word of a King being born, prompting Herod to kill all babies under one year old. So, He did make a big stir upon His first appearance but He then faded from sight until age twelve.
At that time He reappears by amazing the elders with His knowledge and intelligence, causing them to wonder, “Who is this kid?” Then He stormed the Temple and threw out the money changers and sellers of sacrificial animals. (What kind of sacrifice is it to buy and animal for that purpose?) He then disappears again until age thirty.
The Jewish Temple had become an entity unto itself rather than a place to worship and sing praises to God. Instead, the elders and priests had become the center. They made great public displays of their piety by praying aloud in the town square and turning the temple into a business for their purposes. They became the center rather than God.
Jesus came to change all that and to establish a New Covenant with Man, a Covenant with the God of Love as its center to replace the God of Revenge and the elders and priest who were trying to replace HIm. He also gave man a direct pipeline to God rather than having to go through the priests and elders. (Years later, the Church of Peter, the Catholic Church, sort of re-instituted the Old Covenant.) As a result, He made enemies early on.
As He wondered the hills He told his story of true salvation, of Loving thy neighbor as thyself, of helping the beggar in the ditch rather than pretending to not see him, of humbling oneself in God’s service rather than boasting of piety. Along the way He also performed a few miracles such as turning water into wine, walking on the sea and calming the storm, curing the incurable, healing the lame and raising the dead. Naturally, this caught the attention of some and He developed a small following of disciples who accompanied Him and helped spread the Word.
As He drew more and more attention from the citizens He also drew more attention from the Temple elders and priests. He was a direct threat to their livelihood. They began to complain to the powers-that-be, the Romans, and suggested He was a threat to them also. They said, “Here is a man claiming to be King of the World. We must rid ourselves of this man as he is a threat to social order.”
They frequently tried to trick Him into saying just that, that He was God or that He was a King. He always slipped the noose and proclaimed Himself the Son of Man rather than the Son of God. Still, they managed to bring Him before Pilate and demand his execution. In their fervor to rid themselves of this scourge they sought His disciples, too, and any others they could tie to Him. Those who had recently declared eternal devotion, including His most dedicated disciples, like Peter and Judas, betrayed Him, with Peter protesting he had never known Him and Judas betraying His whereabouts to save his own skin.
Here was God, come to Earth as Man, spreading Love and Salvation, and He was rejected and defiled. He had previously told His disciples that they would face the same, He said they would be persecuted in HIs Name, that the road was wide but the gate was narrow, that many would be called but few would answer.
With the repeated demand of the temple elders Pilate relented and condemned Jesus to crucifixion, the most barbaric form of punishment. Pilate offered to crucify Barabbas, a known criminal, instead, but the crowd demanded that it be Jesus.
We all know of the abuse and mistreatment He received as He was forced to carry His own cross up Calvary Hill, how He was nailed instead of tied to the cross, how the Roman soldiers pierced his head with a crown of thorns and His side with a spear, how he fell several times in His tortured journey up the hill, how He suffered in His time hanging on the cross. Yet, during all this, He was still full of Love and Forgiveness for those who were tormenting Him.
To me, that is the true story of the Bible: How Jesus, the Son of God, was sent to show us the route to salvation on Earth and Eternal Life afterward. All we had to do was believe Him. He had displayed Himself through the miracles He performed and through the Love He had shown and preached, and, yet, He was met with rejection, ridicule, and torment. Through it all, He never wavered in His devotion to and Love for us. That was His purpose and that is what He fulfilled, and most of us still reject Him.
That is my thumbnail description of the Gospel. Naturally, I invite your critique and corrections.
Jesus selected disciples right at the start of His missionary journey, to be the direct witnesses as He presented the evidence that His name truly IS 'God With Us'. By and through the gentle directing by God's Holy Spirit, the witnesses remembered and communicated their witness role. And so it is today ... thank you, MnR for sharing your witness.
Thank you for appreciating it. If it helps any one at all I will be happy. Regardless, I enjoy writing and thinking about the Gospel.
You wrote: “Indeed. I like this about him, too. Also his sense of humility — and humor.”
Re: humor. I love how he deliberately misspells words and even makes up words in order to convey a broader meaning.
Re: humility. Here’s one example of it:
Thursday, May 28, 2009
God’s Little Jazz Trio
http://onecosmos.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
“One thing about this Adventure in Christianity™ I am on is that it seems very fresh to me. Not only is every day new, but every day is renewed in a most mythterious manner. As I’ve mentioned before, an outside observer might look at my life and imagine it was boring, but from the inside, it is anything but. I feel as if I live in one of those cartoon houses, in which the walls are expanding outward from all the fun inside. Or maybe it’s a cartoon head. Either way, it’s quite animated around here. ...”
<>
You wrote: “BTW, Dr. Godwin is not the only clinical psychologist I’ve read lately that holds much of the current development of this field in contempt.”
True. There are some psychiatrists that hold that same contempt, too. “Dr. Sanity” is one: http://drsanity.blogspot.com/
Gagdad Bob has some great commentary here on the subject:
“...the vast majority of academic “product” is merely junk food for the mind (as always, we are speaking of the humanities, or subhumanities, to be exact).”
“..A magazine such as Psychology Today represents stupidity squared, because it mostly boils down the nonsense of academia for a semi-literate audience, in the same way that Time or Newsweek purvey idiotarian liberal conventional wisdom to the 8th grade mass-mentality. “
“..Let’s spend a moment looking at this Psychology Today article, which tries to explain the underlying psychological reasons for why someone would be conservative.” .. [snip]
Excerpted from:
Tuesday, January 23, 2007
The Left Behind Series (or, Why is the Left so Intellectually and Spiritually Behind?)
http://onecosmos.blogspot.com/2007/01/left-behind-series-or-why-is-left-so.html
Not to wonder off the topic, I think you and A-G might find it interesting that Arno Penzias has ditched the Big Bang, as more and more astrophysicists are, just as I predicted a while ago. Or as my younger daughter once said about a trendy thing, “it's just a phase.” :)
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