Cessationism Refuted [i.e. Gifts & Operations of HS Stopped at End of Rev]

http://www.charlescarrinministries.com/ [Partially] ^ | 28 FEB 2010 | Charles Carrin & Steven Lambert

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind reply.

[Mad Dawg]

I’ve been thinking about all this and have concluded that I am tone deaf as regards apocalyptic trials and tribulations. I have thought for decades, “He could come before lunch!” (or breakfast, or supper) and what would I do differently?

I pray to be alert and awake and to walk as a child of light. It seems to me I should always pray for those gifts.

More than that, I dunno.

[Mad Dawg]

Oh, and I htink it’s bonkers to say that the gifts of the spirit stopped back then at some time. It seems to me that there are always ‘signs and wonders’ which God does through the faithful.

Our official position is that revelation stopped with the death of the last Apostle. What’s happened since is “unpacking.” BUT I have on my ice box a postcard-sized copy of Dominic praying over a dead child who, we are told, came back to life and was returned to his mother. Who did that if not the Holy Spirit?

[Quix]

Great points in your posts.

THX THX.

[Joya]

Off topic, read this, made me think of how you define “love” for brothers and sisters in Christ:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2617&t=NKJV

mercy 149, kindness 40, lovingkindness 30, goodness 12, kindly 5, merciful 4, favour 3, good 1, goodliness 1, pity 1, reproach 1, wicked thing 1

Excerpted article

Love Redefined: Hurts So Good!
April 22, 2011

By Kevin Kleint

Love …. we’re called to walk in it …. it’s one of the 3 things that will remain …. God even defines Himself by it!

God’s Love
The modern day church THINKS they know what God’s Love is. We’re told to be nice to everybody, feed the poor, accept people the way they are, don’t lose your temper in traffic, be patient with each other …. all of this SOUNDS like God’s Love … BUT IS IT??

I want to do a small study about the Lovingkindess of God. It’s not some obscure term that will be kept mysterious and unattainable until we go to be with Him. We won’t be able to pull the “His Ways are NOT Our Ways” excuse when we see Him. His Word is clear.

Love Defined
Let’s go to Psalm 107 and look at the very last verse of the chapter (v43): “Whoever [is] wise will observe these [things], And they will understand the lovingkindness [khesed] of the LORD.” Look at that carefully, it’s telling you that, whatever came before verse 43 will be understood by wise people, and they WILL understand the lovingkindness [khesed] of the Lord.

Due to time and space constraints, I’m not going to put the whole Strong’s concordance reference the Hebrew Word khesed, but click the following link and read the WHOLE definition.

End of excerpt
By Kevin Kleint

Link is

http://www.zionfire.org/love-redefined-hurts-so-good/

[Quix]

THX.

VERY interesting article.

Much appreciated.

[Cronos]

from the catechism Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work... There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church.

While I think we need to be cautious of these (i.e. we must be sure that they are from God not the other guy) and I believe that even gifts such as quiet contemplation, scholastic study etc. are gifts, to say that these gifts ceased is utterly wrong.

[Quix]

AGREED.

[Cronos]

Why does the OPC say that It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation

?

And why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

[Cronos]

note — I don’t agree with you on much, but I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well? Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today?

[Cronos]

adding on to what I said but I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well? Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today? --

God is not impotent, nor is God some God who went away and now leaves the universe to handle itself.

I believe that while God allows us to disobey Him, His love still shows in the way He reaches out to help us.

[Mad Dawg]

While I think we need to be cautious of these (i.e. we must be sure that they are from God not the other guy)

This is one reason we must find, if not spiritual "directors" or guides or fathers or what have you, at least spiritual friends, who will kick us in the behind when we need it.

I referred earlier to my little picture of Dominic praying over the dead child. It's a fine painting, but one aspect of its "truth" is that Dominic has his hands extended over the child but his eyes are directed upwards and his expression is one of deep supplication.

There is not the least hint of "I've got the power!" It's ALL,"Lord, have mercy!"

And yes, not only do all things work together for good for them that are in Christ Jesus, but all things are gifts. Having nothing at last, we can begin to receive all things as the Lord directs.

Me personally, I'm just gratefully relieved when I am coherent ...

[Mad Dawg]

And why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

Interesting. I hope a reply, unencumbered by all the usual festoons of condescension and hatred, will come forth.

My guess is it comes down to the materialistic and nominalistic (as opposed to realistic) underpinnings of their weltanschauung and the misunderstanding of time.

[Cronos]

My guess is it comes down to the materialistic and nominalistic (as opposed to realistic) underpinnings of their weltanschauung and the misunderstanding of time.

As my wife says to me when I say "Achtung!" don't spik German to me! ;-P

Though, thanks to handy-dandy translate.google.com I see that "weltanschauung" = "belief"

I don't completely understand the entire concept of saying "God don't work miracles any more -- it's over, done, kaput"

[Quix]

True, imho.

[Quix]

Yeah.

There is that, alright . . . the coherent thing.

Some probably think I never am.

[Quix]

It’s akin to the RC’s saying that God only does certain things through the edifice and the hierarchy, the magicsterical etc.

[Cronos]

So, do YOU understand the concept of "God don't work miracles any more -- it's over, done, kaput" ?

[Mad Dawg]

LOL

[Quix]

I understand how idiotic a notion that is.

I understand some of the psychology behind such UnBiblical hideousness.