Cessationism Refuted [i.e. Gifts & Operations of HS Stopped at End of Rev]

http://www.charlescarrinministries.com/ [Partially] ^ | 28 FEB 2010 | Charles Carrin & Steven Lambert

[Mad Dawg]

the edifice and the hierarchy, the magicsterical etc.

What would a snake-handlin', poison-drinkin' psych professor know about that? ;-)

I think that this remark reflects a common (even among Catholics) misunderstanding of what is best set forth in Dominus Iesus About our view of what is uniquel proper to us. We also have read, "He who is not against us is with us," along with "He who does not gather with us, scatters," and we thread a delicate path there.

[Quix]

LOL.

I’ve noticed.

threaded through lots of rabbit trails, it seems to me.

And such a refined “more accurate” view of RCC realities is held by what . . .

0.000001% of RC’s?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Don’t expect answers to questions filled with erroneous suppositions.

BTW, does Rome believe in speaking in tongues?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well?

No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today" other than maybe Roman Catholics who relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

The Holy Spirit is the reason and means for our sanctification. Christians know that the Holy Spirit works in their lives every single day, all day, 24/7.

If He didn't, we wouldn't be Christians. We'd be reprobates who might be inclined to relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today?

Miracles occur every day. And every one of those miracles was ordained by God for His glory and our welfare from before the foundation of the world.

[Cronos]

For your edification,Dr. Eck:

OrthodoPresbyterianC from the opc.org website doctrine

Catholic doctrine from the Catechism

It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation. Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost. The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53    Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church

[Cronos]

Don’t expect answers to questions filled with erroneous suppositions.

Yes, the OPC doctrines are filled with erroneous doctrins, like The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

Why do you believe that?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot come today and has stopped coming?

[Cronos]

Dr. Eckleburg: No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today"

From the opc website Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost. The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

ok, so doc, do you mean that say that the OPC is not Christian in your opinion?

[Cronos]

From the opc website It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.

This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.

ok, so doc, do you mean that say that you reject the OPC doctrine on this? Do you think that speaking in tongues is possible today?

[Cronos]

The problem is that OPC members self-declare your own salvation,
and the OPC preaches that church members do not get Judged - and they are the only ones who are resurrected which is a substitute for Judgement.

As well, the OPC teaches covenant succession, which is the doctrine that church members' children are saved regardless of whether or not they are even Christian.

[Mad Dawg]

If we were to use that standard we’d a have to say that Einstein was wrong, the calculus is meaningless and IHS was a failure.

The number of people who know or understand something has no discernible relationship with the truth, just as the number of people who leave Mass General Hospital in a box is not a function of its excellence as a hospital.

[Mad Dawg]

BTW, does Rome believe in speaking in tongues?

I'm not sure what "believe in" means, but we acknowledge it and do not condemn it. BTW "materialism" and "nominalism" are not put downs, they are descriptions of schools of thought.

[Mad Dawg]

Well, to be fair (novel idea!), the OPC statement doesn't dismiss ALL works of the Holy Spirit. It says what happened on Pentecost is unique but (as far as I know) it doesn't specify in what respect it is unique.

So one could adhere to the OPC statement and say what Dr. E. said.

[Quix]

LOL.

[HossB86]

>>I don’t see how saying “oh, the Holy Spirit doesn’t work today” makes any sense — what happened? Did the Spirit just go away? And what is wrong with believing that the Spirit works today as well?<<

No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today" other than maybe Roman Catholics who relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

The Holy Spirit is the reason and means for our sanctification. Christians know that the Holy Spirit works in their lives every single day, all day, 24/7.

If He didn't, we wouldn't be Christians. We'd be reprobates who might be inclined to relegate the Holy Spirit behind the magisterium and Mary and the sacraments and "alter Christus," etc.

>>Is it so wrong to believe that God does not work miracles today?<<

Miracles occur every day. And every one of those miracles was ordained by God for His glory and our welfare from before the foundation of the world.

Wow. Beautifully put. AMEN! Thanks Dr. E!!!

:D

Hoss

[Natural Law]

"No Christian says the "Holy Spirit doesn't work today"

Which is so damning of those who state that the Holy Spirit cannot operate through Apostolic Succession and is incapable of participating in Apostolic Tradition, or, get this, the Holy Spirit cannot guide the Magisterium, but 'indwells" in every milkmaid and farmhand...LOL

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Why would the Holy Spirit work through Apostolic Succession when there is no such thing as Apostolic Succession?

Your logic is akin to saying "since the Holy Spirit works in our lives, the Holy Spirit must serve solid gold Big Macs at McDonalds."

Rome teaches superstition and error, in contrast to the evidence of Scripture.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Fascinating. Rome is even more foolish than I thought.

But I forgot. Rome never met a parlor trick it didn’t try to adapt into its theology.

[Cronos]

So, Dr. Eck, do you believe that people can talk in tongues now? Your own doctrines say no and deny God the ability to perform miracles.

[Cronos]

Dr. eck, why does the OPC say that The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was?

[Cronos]

Dr. eck, why does the OPC say that It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation

?