Posted on 05/21/2011 4:46:26 AM PDT by marbren
Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.
A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.
The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.
This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.
So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.
did Jesus hate the Jews too when He told them in John 8:24 “
therefore I said to you, you will die in your sins; for unless you believe I am He, you will die in your sins”
In the first place, it’s obvious that you don’t even understand the difference between Sola Scriptura and Solo Scriptura. There are many scriptural references to testing anything one hears by what is written. Here are a couple of examples.
I Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers,[a] that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
You would evidently not agree with that portion of scripture since praying to dead people, the ascension of Mary, and many other teachings of some religions have no basis in scripture.
Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Going back to the original discussion of this thread it’s obvious that Camping didn’t agree with portions of scripture, as it’s evident you don’t given the example above, or he would have also read the written word that “no one knows the hour or the day”. Therein lies the need to “examine the scripture daily to see if these things were so”.
oLofob wrote:
“... what i can’t understand is how sola scriptura has led to 30,000 “churches”. why do we need the baptists, if we have the lutherans. the lutherans hold to sola scriptura, why can’t the baptists be lutheran?”
I can hardly believe that you used the phrase “sola scriptura” in a post wherein I agree with what you said (in this particular post). The Lutherans (the real ones, not the post-Christian ELCA) do indeed hold to sola scriptura, and the Protestants (Lutherans aren’t Protestants), anabaptists, and pentecostal types do not. They all mix personal experience or human reason with the Scriptures, some more, some less, without recognizing that the “sola” part has been horribly compromised.
I expect that I would find agreement with you when it comes to Christology and Trinitarian theology, all of which was settled by the time of Chalcedon, 451. When it comes to Soteriology and Ecclesiology, which doctrinal disputes arose after that time, I don’t expect to find much agreement with you at all. After Chalcedon and the lamentable reign of Leo I (the so-called “great”) the corruption had set in. The tragedy is, from the Lutheran perspective, that Rome proved immune either to self-correction or brotherly admonition and Protestantism proved to be evermore fractious and argumentative.
There is one bright ray on this day after the “end of the world.” We can all agree that Harold Camping is either deranged or deluded (or both). On the subject of Christ’s second coming, he isn’t the first. And he won’t be the last.
The faithful will continue to wait in patience, sustained by the grace of God in Christ alone, their prayer simply, “marana tha.”
Does that apply only to the Jews or to everybody? You can't have it both ways. You can't deny every single bit of Scripture which states that God has not replaced Israel with the Church then attempt to say that when Jesus told everyone, not just the Jews, that unless they believed on Jesus Christ they would die in their sins. Either the entire Bible is the word of God or it's not.
And as long as you're quoting Jesus, let's see something from Him where He said the Church has replaced Israel.
Good luck.
Camping is a victim?????????? ROFLMAO-CGU.......
So what does that make his followers who have either sold off everything they owned or gave it away, collateral damage?
It's likely Camping made a fortune back in 1994 by his then EOW prediction and he's likely made a fortune by this bogus act also.
He has done more harm to the Christian community by the ridicule he has brought on Believers than any Tammy Fay or Jimmy Swaggert could ever do...........
did i say left field, your last post shows you are not even in the ballpark!
who does the fig tree represent in Scripture and why did Jesus curse the fig tree in Mark 11:12-14?
“does that apply to the Jews or everyone?”
I THINK I AM MAKING PROGRESS!!!!!!!!!!
It applies to EVERYONE, Irish, German, African, Jewish, Arab, Italian, Polish, etc. etc.
Get it???
The Jews have no special right or promise not made to EVERYONE!!!!!
All must believe Jesus was sent by the Father, or they will die in their sins.
The fact they have Jewish blood means NOTHING!!
It would be hateful towards them to withhold the Gospel, which Peter did not do in Acts.
Luther did keep much of the Catholic Faith in his new sect, but added many doctrines unknown to the Church up until that time. Where we agree on theology, i praise God for that! I only wish Luther had read John 17 and 1 Corinthians 1 before he tore the Christian world apart.
>> so you follow Paul’s admonition to the Thessalonians and keep the Apostolic Tradition? and yes, the Apostles were all men, so i guess the Catholic Church must plead guilty to following the traditions of men, you got us there!!<<
I doubt you know how the present day RCC has perverted the original intent of the concept of tradition. You might begin by reading the following article. I suspect you are not inclined to truly try to find truth and I suspect I may know more about the true history of the RCC then you do, but will suggest this starting point anyway.
Rome’s New and Novel Concept of Tradition. http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/livingtradition.html
so are you saying Paul didn’t tell the Thessalonians to keep the tradition taught by him?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
“So then, brethern, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”
sounds like St Paul is equating Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as both being the Word of God. I think only the Catholic Church keeps these traditions, since she received them from the Apostles.
tell me, do you believe in infant baptism? how about worshipping on Sunday and not keeping the 7th day Sabbath?
Can you provide one verse of Scripture to prove your assertion that the Church has replaced Israel? I'm not even asking you to get in the ballpark - just the Bible.
who does the fig tree represent in Scripture and why did Jesus curse the fig tree in Mark 11:12-14?
The fig tree represents Israel and He cursed the fig tree, symbolically denouncing Israel as a nation and, in a sense, even denouncing unfruitful “Christians” (that is, people who profess to be Christian but have no evidence of a relationship with Christ). Symbolically, the fig tree represented the spiritual deadness of Israel, who while very religious outwardly with all the sacrifices and ceremonies, were spiritually barren because of their sins.
By cursing the fig tree, causing it to whither and die, Jesus was pronouncing His coming judgment of Israel and demonstrating His power to carry it out. And that judgment was carried out after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the diaspora of the Jewish people.
Since the 1800s, that judgment has been lifted as God has been bringing His people back into the land He gave them, just as He said He would.
one verse for the Church being Israel - Romans 9:1-13. St Paul couldn’t be any clearer.
congratulations, at least you know the fig tree was corporate Israel. It was cursed because it rejected Jesus and it would no longer produce spiritual fruit.
tell me the verse where it says this judgement was lifted in the 1800’s or are you a prophetess like Ellen White?
the land God brings His people to is spiritual reconciliation with the Father by His Sacrificial death on the cross, it is not some dirt in the Middle East.
here i thought you were making progress!
Do you get that the Church has not replaced Israel? Do you get that the eternal covenant God made with Abraham and his physical descendants does not apply to any other people?
Get it?????
The Jews have no special right or promise not made to EVERYONE!!!!!
Really? Then take every single one of the Scriptures I gave you which apply only to the Jews and do your best to make them apply to everyone. Go ahead. Remember, your own opinion is meaningless and does not count. You'll need Scripture for this project. Take each and every bit of Scripture I gave you which is only for Israel and the Jewish people and try to make them apply to everyone.
If you can accomplish that, you will have a tiny bit of credibility and I may get somewhere.
The fact they have Jewish blood means NOTHING!!
And there you are, denying Scripture yet again. And I had such high hopes for you. A leopard doesn't change it's spots, I guess. Once a hater of Jews, always a hater of Jews.
It would be hateful towards them to withhold the Gospel, which Peter did not do in Acts.
Who said anything about withholding the Gospel from them? I'm talking about the fact that all of Scripture, except for a few books in the New Testament and up until chapter 4 of Revelation is about the Jews and God's promises to them and the fact that they are a separate entity from the Church with different destinies in the plans of God.
Let's see if you can take all the Scripture I gave you which are exclusively for the Jews and try to force them to apply to the Church.
This ought to be good.
does your Bible read in Mark 14 “and he said to it, May no one ever eat fruit from you until sometime in the 1800’s?”
cause mine says” may no one ever eat from you again”
sounds final to me, but maybe my Bible is wrong.
different destinies in the plan of God?
there are only two destinies, those in Christ will be in heaven, those not in Christ will be in hell.
please read Romans 9 and stop believing corporate Israel has some seperate destiny than Japan, US, Bolivia, etc.
would you like to share what sect or denomination you belong to? i’d like to research more your beliefs, i have never come across anyone saying these things before and wish to know more.
You can be like the communists and write a revised history but most credible sources pretty well agree that while written in the 1st cent the NT was not widely disseminated to the illiterate faithful. Therefore, when Paul and Acts as well as the early church fathers refer to scripture it is the OT.
Camping is the poster child for the Sola crowd and has brought nothing but derision to the christian world who now are convinced that evangelicals are red neck types who are barely literate. The Dick ,Jane Spot types.
I know this might discombobulate your mental equilibrium but it is what it is.
bronx2, i’m with you brother, but Paul and Acts could have been referring to a gospel or two, no one knows for sure. other than that, i’m with you 100%, God bless you!
Oh no, the Bible is never wrong. Especially when God tells His people:
At that time I will bring you in, even at the time when I gather you together; indeed, I will give you renown and praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I restore your fortunes before your eyes,” Says the LORD. (Zephaniah 3:20)
“I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. 14“I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 34: 13-14)
And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. (Jeremiah 24:7)
"Behold, I am bringing them from the north country, and I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and she who is in labor with child, together; a great company, they will return here. (Jeremiah 31:8)
So no, the Bible is never wrong, but people with agendas can twist the words of the Bible to fit the way they wish things were.
And, as we know from Jesus Christ Himself, the Father and Son are one, and we know from the Bible that God promises repeatedly to bring His people back into their own land, and we know from history that God has been fulfilling that promise since the 1800s, so when Jesus said the fig tree would no longer bear fruit, it is an impossibility that that means that God is finished with the Jews.
So while the Bible is never wrong, people who make a habit of denying Scripture and picking and choosing the few Scriptures that they think they can change around to conform to their agenda, will continue to delude themselves that the Bible in "on their side", even if they have declared war with God by hating His people.
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