Posted on 11/25/2011 7:50:11 PM PST by rzman21
Mat 23:9
(9) And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Typical.
If you are going to be consistent then you need to agree with the Catholic undertanding of that phrase.
“All believers are today members of His Royal Priesthood.”
The priests of the royal priesthood were also to be kings so who are the believers ruling over as kings?
Because you can’t trust the hearer. Besides Jesus and the apostles didn’t record everything they said or did in the Bible.
All messages require a communicator and an interpreter.
And besides we have to guard against the interpretations of the age and against cultural biases, which is why all Apostolic Christians look to Holy Tradition to find what the Scripture mean.
Languages change, cultures change, so people are liable to misinterpret the scriptures for their own benefit.
Not to mention, the apostles and their immediate successors ended up waging a pitched battle with Gnosticism from the start, which led to the codification of Tradition as a protector of Scripture.
If it weren’t for Tradition, how would we know that the correct gospels aren’t Thomas, Peter, Mary, and the Egyptians?
Look in our own time how liberals have twisted the scriptures to promote homosexuality, socialism, etc. That’s why holding fast to Tradition is important.
Sola Scriptura offers no defense against the re-emergence of Gnosticism in our own time and those who are trying to trot out the heretical gospels to confuse the faithful.
Tradition defends and confirms the Scriptures.
I must also make the distinction between traditions with a small t (i.e. customs that can be done away with or enhanced) and dogmatic Traditions with a capital T. The Trinity, they Hypostatic Union being two key ones that Protestants believe in.
John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
The following link has dozens of scripture verses showing the role of tradition in Biblical times. http://www.scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html
The Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. The Evangelical concept of the “Church” and the Catholic/Orthodox/Early Christian conception are different things.
Not to mention, mortal men do NOT confer the sacraments. God does using mortals as means of his grace in the same way he used St. Paul, the prophets, and the other apostles.
They conduits of God’s grace. The sacred mysteries are the ordinary means that Jesus gave us to receive his grace.
When I was a Lutheran, I found the Evangelicals’ anti-sacramentalism strange and even a bit arrogant because it equals presumption.
Martin Luther for one did not see the sort of dualism that you posit. Between faith and the sacraments.
I learned about grace and the sacraments when I was a Lutheran.
There is no contradiction between faith in Christ and the sacraments.
Obviously your religion doesn't teach forgiveness and redemption.
You sure don't sound like a Christian.
Then how do you apply “Call no man teacher?”
It was around for well over 1000 years before Luther vandalized that door.
No Christian believed that Jesus was being metaphorical when he said “this is my body” “this is my blood” until after 1000 A.D.
And to this day, all Eastern Christians understand it as literal.
Evidently, Evangelicals know better than people like St. Ignatius of Antioch who learned his faith from the apostles themselves.
Eons?
Seriously?
How many years in an eon?
“God the Holy Spirit brings us into the Church by baptizing us. It isn’t the little man who disobeys God, seeking to be called ‘father’ who brings us into the Body of Christ.”
ok, let’s test this statement by the Scriptures:
what do they teach?
- Jesus gave the Church His authority to teach and baptize ( matthew 28 )
- baptism is for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit ( Acts 2:38, 22:16, Titus 3:4-8 )
- by One Spirit, we have all been baptized into One Body, the Church ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 )
- the Holy Spirit baptized thru and by the Church ( Acts 2:38, 8:36-39, 10:47, 22:16 )
- there is only One Baptism ( Ephesians 4:5 )
- baptism saves us ( 1 Peter 3:21 )
- no one was ever saved in the NT without the Holy Spirit working thru the Body of Christ, the Church ( anyone who disagrees, provide Scriptural proof )
- no one was saved in the NT by reading the Scriptures on their own and asking Jesus into their heart as personal Savior ( if anyone disagrees, provide Scriptural proof )
- no one was ever told to be baptized as a first act of obedience or as an outward display of something that has already happened ( if anyone disagrees, provide Scriptural proof )
so we see there is a big difference between what men following a 16th century tradition teach and what the Church of Jesus Christ has believed and taught for 2,000 years.
the question everyone must ask themselves is :
Am I going to follow Almighty God and His commands or am I going to follow the man or woman in the mirror?
There are distinctions in the royal priesthood, though.
From the Coptic Orthodox Church, which broke with Rome 1,000 years before the Protestant Revolution:
Institution of Priesthood
This sacrament was instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ when He chose the twelve of his followers, and consecrated them for ministry, “He called His disciples to Him, and from them He chose twelve whom He named apostles” (Luke 6:13)
These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them saying: “Preach saying, ‘the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons” (Matthew 10:5-8)
He gave them the authority of absolution and binding: “Assuredly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 18:18).
After His resurrection He appeared to them in the upper room in Zion and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:22-23).
Only for them He said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19,20)
Only to them He gave the mystery of His Holy Body and Precious Blood, “And when the hour had come, He sat down and the twelve apostles with Him...He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them saying, ‘This is my Body which is given for you do this in remembrance of Me’, likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, ‘This is the new covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you’” (Luke 22:14-20).
The honor of Priesthood:
Priesthood is a great honor as it is a consecration of the work with God for the salvation of the souls of the people of God.
Priesthood is a divine call:
“And Jesus went up on the mountain and called to Him those He wanted, and they came to Him. Then He appointed twelve that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, and to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out demons” (Mark 3:13-15)
Divine choice:
“Now it came to pass in those days that Jesus went up to the mountain to pray and continued all night in prayer to God, and when it was day, He called His disciples to Him and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles” (Luke 6:12,13)
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain” (John 15:16)
Appointment:
“After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go” (Luke 10:1)
Selection:
“As they (disciples) ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Now separate for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’ Then having fasted and prayed and laid hands on them, they sent them away” (Acts 13:2, 3). That is why our teacher St. Paul boasted saying, “But when it pleased God who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace to reveal His son in me, that I might preach Him among the gentiles” (Galatians 1:15,16)
Consecration:
“And for their sake I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth” (John 17:19). To sanctify means to consecrate. Christ consecrated Himself for the ministry and our redemption. All the ranks of the priesthood are consecrated for ministry, according to the example of Christ, the High Priest.
Faithfulness and stewardship:
“Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes” (Luke 12:42, 43)
“Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the Mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards that one is found faithful” (1 Corinthians 4:1, 2)
Priesthood is a great honour:
No one takes this honour upon himself, this honour is granted and given by God, just as He granted the honour to Aaron. Likewise, Christ did not glorify Himself to become high priest, but the Father said to Him, “You are My Son. Today I have begotten You.” And also, “You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek” (Hebrews 5:4-6)
Ranks of Priesthood
There are three ranks in Priesthood:
The order of Deacons
The order of Priests
The order of Bishops
Deacons are servants,
Priests are teachers,
Bishops are overseers, and shepherds.
1- The order of Deacons
‘Deacon’, pronounced as such in Greek, is a Syrian word meaning ‘servant’. The deacon’s responsibility is to help the priest or bishop perform the religious ministry. The first church appointed seven deacons who were full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom to help in service, “The twelve summoned the multitude of disciples and said: ‘Seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom whom we may appoint over this business’” (Acts 6:2,3).
“When they were chosen, they set them before the apostles and when they had prayed they laid hands on them” (Acts 6:6).
The apostles stipulated the following three conditions for nominating deacons:
They must be full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom.
They should be appointed by the apostles through the laying on of hands with prayers.
They should carry out certain responsibilities in the church.
Our teacher St. Paul also specified the requirements of a deacon, in his First Epistle to Timothy (3:8-13): “Likewise deacons must be:
· reverent
· not double tongued
· not given to too much wine(drunkenness)
· not greedy for money
· holding the mystery of faith with a pure conscience
· ruling their children and their houses well
· should be tested first, and then proved and found blameless, so they can be ordained” (1 Timothy 3:10)
· Although the rank of deacon is the most junior rank of priesthood, St. Paul praises it saying, “For those who served well as deacons, obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 3:13).
There are five ranks of deacons. In ascending order, they are:
Epsaltos (hymnist)
Ognostis (reader)
Epideacon (subdeacon)
Deacon (full deacon)
Archdeacon (leader of deacons)
We shall now discuss each rank in terms of responsibilities, conditions, clothing, and rites of ordination
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/7_priesthood.html
My religion has Jesus Christ (The Rock of Ages) as the Foundation. No man can be the foundation. If the successor ship worked as the Catholic Church claimed, the Pope would be going out in the world alone healing and making the lame walk and blind see. Instead he is a man the same as you or I. Peter repented and was forgiven but The Church has the Everlasting Savior as its foundation.
Thank you. This is probably the most misused and misapplied verse in the Bible. You have succeeded in doing it one more time. I find, as a general rule, Catholics are well read in the Bible. That is a good thing. But to quote it here is a sophomoric blunder. I am growing weary of this thread. Unless I find another ping here worth responding to, I'll mosey along.
the shame is many of those outside the Church have no idea who Ignatius was or any other of the Church Fathers.
if they did, they would be compelled to believe the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith.
No king/priests in the Christian congregation.
The real problem is your ignorance.
You wrote:
” Calling priests “Father”,”
Is not wrong as shown above.
” Marian worship,”
No Catholic does it - except in someone’s twilight fantasy world of delusion.
“statuary (idols?) that gives me the creeps,”
We don’t worship statues. And your “creeps” bring us back to someone’s twilight fantasy world of delusion.
“forbidding priests to marry,”
They take a VOLUNTARY vow to not marry. Thus, the Church does not forbid them to marry, the Church merely expects them to adhere to the vow which they freely took.
“following tradition rather that the Bible . . .”
No such thing happens. Both are followed. It is logically impossible to have one without the other.
“the list goes on and on and on.”
And it is a useless one having nothing to do with reality.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.