Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[Quix]

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

That said . . .

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

[evangmlw]

GOD HELP THE CHURCH -- DECEPTION RUNS RAMPANT AND DISCERMENT IS A RARE COMMODITY. Jesus promised the last day deception would "deceive even the very elect if possible." You have question the spiritual birth of those who continue to follow these heretics.

"Kenneth Copeland got his start in ministry as a direct result of memorizing Hagin's messages. It wasn't long before he had learned enough from Hagin to establish his own following. To say his teachings are heretical would be an understatement — blasphemous is more like it. Copeland brashly pronounces God to be the greatest failure of all time, boldly proclaims that "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross" (emphasis in original),26 and describes Christ in hell as an "emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit."

[boatbums]

Spot on!

[reaganaut]

How easy it is for us to forget that there are millions of Christians around the world who still face persecution and threat of death and who, through it all, have a faith that is so strong it makes some of ours look like we’re just getting started.

- - - - - - -
AMEN! I have supported Voice of the Martyrs for years and am always humbled by the experience of believers in other countries and their trials for the cause of Christ.

[reaganaut]

Preach it, Sister!

[roamer_1]

I never said the gifts didn’t exist. [...]

Then we can agree on that in the least... and that those gifts DO in fact include tongues in some form or fashion. What do you suppose that 'form or fashion' to be? Can you define it?

[...] My issue is with those who seek after them as a sign of ‘super spirituality’ and hold over others. That itself is a sin.

Without agreeing with the assertions against Quix personally, I would agree with the premise wholeheartedly. But the same statement, to be fair, should apply broadly to all the gifts, and not just tongues. Surely there is just as much tendency to take any of the gifts and use them poorly in precisely the same fashion. Or to push the point further, any aspect of faith could be used as poorly. Probably the most common 'holier than thou' comes in the form of preachers and church ladies... so much so as to gain credence in comedy skits... My point being stones/glass houses, etc (not pointed at you particularly).

Whole false systems have been born of that 'holier than thou' schtick , as you undoubtedly know in your battles with Mormonism. So why so visceral a reaction to seeing it among those who are charismatic? Rather, one should expect it there just as much as it is everywhere in Christendom.

God chooses which gifts (and not all of them) to which believers for the edification of the Body.

I have often thought about how exactly those gifts are received... I do not subscribe to the notion that they are exactly hierarchical, meaning that one MUST obtain tongues to attain any other (albeit those with greater gifts have a tendency to have experienced the lesser ones in my observation). My own experience with tongues did not come first.

I have never seen edification from speaking in tongues just holier than thou-ness.

My own experience differs - Tongues - and I am speaking of the 'gibberish' that seems to be the offense here - have always come upon me in humility, and with a fair amount of embarrassment, even though I have never spoken in tongues in public, and have always only been standing before YHWH (alone) when they have erupted.

For me, and YMMV, it happens after I get a very good 'hook' when the Spirit comes down... Like my mouth is broadcasting at 28.8 modem speed and my soul is plugged into broadband... My mouth just can't keep up. What is coming out of my physical face winds up being gibberish. But I know what I am saying in prayer, even though it is far beyond the means of 'saying' at all... almost beyond the concept of thought itself.

I am sorry if I cannot describe the experience very well... It is the best analogy that I have at my disposal. I doubt that I will ever speak in tongues in a public setting, because I never have been overcome by the Spirit in public - For me it takes a ton of prayer and something akin to concentration on praise to get to that point. But neither can I fault those who seem to be able to get there easier than me.

And you are reading WAY more into that verse than what it says.

I am not relying wholly upon that verse alone. There is a fascinating bit in Matt 13 after Yeshua is asked why he speaks in parables... and a multitude of comparisons between children of darkness and the children of light - it is the wicked generation that will seek for a sign and not find it - the children of darkness as it were.... it is not saying that the children of light will seek signs and find none.

If it did, it would go against the preponderance of writings which say the children of light will know, and will see... even knowing the time of the end (like 1 Th 5).

[reaganaut]

That is what I keep hearing as well.

[Quix]

Welllllllll fancy that . . .

when folks

evidently

CANNOT tell the DIFFERENCE

between

RESPONDING TO A POST

vs

PINGING SOMEONE to come join a thread . . .

NO WONDER the rather clear language of I Cor 14 is so unfathomable for some folks.

Soooo . . . I ask again . . . where did I ping you to join this thread?

IIRC,

I DIDN'T.

[reaganaut]

What do you suppose that ‘form or fashion’ to be? Can you define it?

- - - - -
The bible is not clear on it. Therefore we should not be dogmatic about it.

[Quix]

Hmmmmmmm

Curious . . .

so . . . what was the interviewing criteria?

How was it you ended up with the group of all those with clunky convictions and representations?

[reaganaut]

But the same statement, to be fair, should apply broadly to all the gifts, and not just tongues. Surely there is just as much tendency to take any of the gifts and use them poorly in precisely the same fashion.

- - - -
I can agree with this statement. However I have seen holier than thou ness from all types of people in church. And it seems much more rampant among those who view tongues as proof of salvation.

[reaganaut]

Again you are reading much more into that verse than what is there. What you claim is not what is stated.

This is exactly the kind of thing that I object to among some Charismatics. They create this spiritual hobby around tongues and place it on a much higher plane than the other gifts when Paul himself places it lower than the other gifts.

I’m ambivalent on tongues other than what I have seen and the results of those who focus on it and in that way I see it as leading people to sin rather than to praise God.

I’m for moderation in all things, and sadly, this thread is proof that some Charismatics are not being moderate in their assertions relating to tongues.

I generally avoid these threads, and am appalled at the way I have been insulted and accused because I automatically do not seek after speaking in tongues and do not believe any Christian should as well as pointing out that people are putting a televangelist on a pedestal whose teachings are not biblical in at least some areas.

Frankly, I am disgusted by some of the posters on this thread who claim to be believers yet are twisting scripture, focusing on minutae, attacking people’s faith because they don’t speak in tongues or have an illness. It is disgusting and divisive to the Body of Christ and it is coming from the Charismatics.

[reaganaut]

One last point. Last time I checked, God understands English and every other language. We don’t need a ‘prayer language’.

[CynicalBear]

Quix, these threads are an open forum. Anyone can respond or make comments. I don’t need your “invitation” nor will I be kept off these threads because of your thin skin.

As for your assertion about 1 Cor 14 I’ll just say that taken by itself one would expect to see speaking in tongues from most every believer. Taken in context with the entirety of scripture however not so much.

[roamer_1]

[roamer_1:] What do you suppose that ‘form or fashion’ to be? Can you define it?

The bible is not clear on it. Therefore we should not be dogmatic about it.

Bravo! That is a fairly brave position to take, and I largely agree with it. However, the matter-of-fact way that it is discussed in the scriptures leads me to believe that the initial audience the scriptures were written for knew exactly what the term implied - It bothers me that something so perfectly understood then has been nearly erased in our thought - Again, I come from the position that the Gifts were evident then (thus delivered), and therefore should be evident now. What bugs me about that is the absence of powerful gifts that were matter-of-fact and powerful in that day.

On a previous thread there was a question: "Why aren't these charismatics hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?" The broader concept which went unnoticed in that debate is "Why aren't CHRISTIANS hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?"

Something important has been lost - Can you see that?

[boatbums]

Amen. "And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, HE who raised Christ from the dead will also GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit, who lives in you." I BELIEVE HIM when HE SPEAKS! PRAISE GOD!!

Are you saying that Jesus promised eternal life to our mortal bodies? That our mortal bodies will never die? If you are, then I'm sure that is news to all the Christians THAT HAVE ALREADY DIED! We will have glorified and incorruptible bodies with which to spend eternity in Heaven with our Savior and God, but these mortal, corruptible, fleshly bodies? NOPE! Somebody has told you something that is not true.

I Corinthians 15:50-54
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[boatbums]

Sooooooooo where on this thread or where ever on FR or where ever anywhere have I ever said such a thing, written such a thing or supported such a thing? What is WITH all this compulstion to drag every straw dog in the neighborhood into such threads? SHEESH!

How about that you endorsed Kenneth Copeland on this very thread, assuring everybody that he is entirely Biblical in his teachings and the excerpt I posted from his website that says "everybody baptized in the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues"? Could THAT be it??? Something, BTW, that you have not yet even addressed.

[presently no screen name]

Well, I'd appreciate it if you refrain from telling me what I can and cannot do.

Wow! Do you think you are God? I said I'd appreciate it if you don't speak to me on what 'you think' about God on what HE does/doesn't do.

His thoughts ARE higher than our thoughts and His ways above our ways

Exactly. Didn't I just tell YOU that in my previous post about what 'you think' that you are responding to?

if people would stop trying to "sell" God as the equivalent of a magic genie

Still reducing Him to some worldly level, again, I see. He is NO fairy godmother or Santa Claus.

Short changing God is when anyone presumes to know better than Him about what he does and doesn't do in each individual life.

Now who would be doing that? Suffering IS part of His plan and healing is NOT always His best - deal with it!

I, as a child of God, don't have to deal with suffering as I believe HIM and I am healed and blessed. So I don't have to 'deal' what you are dishing out by your own thoughts and wishful ways.

[presently no screen name]

I just read a few posts to you. You have the patience of a saint! How many were happy to hear your cousin’s healing was manifested? All darts at the one God is using.

[Quix]

GENERIC TO THE NAYSAYERS NEAR & FAR AND WIDE.

We don’t need a ‘prayer language’.

I'll let y'all be the one to tell

ALMIGHTY
OMNISCIENT
OMNIPRESENT
GOD

that HE made a big mistake.

Maybe He'll be thrilled to be corrected by such superior wisdom.

New Living Translation (NLT)

1 Corinthians 14

Tongues and Prophecy

2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[b] but it will all be mysterious.

4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

15 Well then, what shall I do? I WILL PRAY IN THE SPIRIT,[e] and I will ALSO pray in words I understand. I WILL SING IN THE SPIRIT, and I will ALSO sing in words I understand.

16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You will be giving thanks VERY WELL, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

A Call to Orderly Worship
26 Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one WILL speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.

39 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don’t forbid speaking in tongues.

.

Scriptures above Quixicated because some seem to have mentally ripped them out of their Bibles for so long, it is as though they are not there.

Or maybe they are soooooooo uncomfortable and intolerant of those verses and phrases that they have to take a valium when reading I Cor 14.

Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that Apostle Paul needed to submit his manuscript to them for editing before it was included in the Canon.

Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that God just got HIS wires crossed when He transmitted I Corinthians to Paul.

Or maybe they just can't handle or refuse to handle God's way of doing things and so they have to rationalize it all away 12 ways to Sunday so they can sleep more smugly.

Or maybe they're just plain wrong and are toooo stubborn, self-righteous and proud about tongues to submit themselves to God and admit it.

If such Christians allowed satan to rob them of other Biblical truths on the basis of clunky demonstrations of such other Biblical truths in the flawed lives of other believers--they wouldn't believe a word in the Bible at all.

May God have mercy.

[roamer_1]

However I have seen holier than thou ness from all types of people in church. And it seems much more rampant among those who view tongues as proof of salvation.

Now, see... I see that differently... as a charismatic in a very old school Protestant assembly, I have always been on the outside looking in. So perhaps it depends wholly upon one's particular point of view.

I can say that I interact with an AOG church for counseling where my Calvinist church dares not to tread... Among them, and among Church of Christ I am treated as a fellow member. I have never run into this "You must speak in tongues to be saved" group you speak of. My credentials among them seem to be sufficient only in that I know what it means to be filled by the Spirit.