Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

I'm a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I'm MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I'm NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don't plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that's their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit's gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don't feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn't work with women anyway.

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don't know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I'll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like 'death warmed over' in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I'm not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches--a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor's team told her what she'd said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she'd declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man's opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited--including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: "You'd better be right!"

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was 'supposed to love the sheep.'

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven't verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

I Thessalonians 5:20-22
Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil.

I John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Barne's Notes on the Bible says:

Prove all things - Subject everything submitted to you to be believed to the proper test. The word here used (δοκιμάζετε dokimazete), is one that is properly applicable to metals, referring to the art of the assayer, by which the true nature and value of the metal is tested; see notes, 1 Corinthians 3:13. This trial was usually made by fire. The meaning here is, that they were carefully to examine everything proposed for their belief. They were not to receive it on trust; to take it on assertion; to believe it because it was urged with vehemence, zeal, or plausibility. In the various opinions and doctrines which were submitted to them for adoption, they were to apply the appropriate tests from reason and the word of God, and what they found to be true they were to embrace; what was false they were to reject. Christianity does not require people to disregard their reason, or to be credulous. It does not expect them to believe anything because others say it is so. It does not make it a duty to receive as undoubted truth all that synods and councils have decreed; or all that is advanced by the ministers of religion. It is, more than any other form of religion, the friend of free inquiry, and would lead people everywhere to understand the reason of the opinions which they entertain; compare Acts 17:11-12; 1 Peter 3:15.

Hold fast that which is good - Which is in accordance with reason and the word of God; which is adapted to promote the salvation of the soul and the welfare of society. This is just as much a duty as it is to "prove all things." A man who has applied the proper tests, and has found out what is truth, is bound to embrace it and to hold it fast. He is not at liberty to throw it away, as if it were valueless; or to treat truth and falsehood alike. It is a duty which he owes to himself and to God to adhere to it firmly, and to suffer the loss of all things rather than to abandon it. There are few more important rules in the New Testament than the one in this passage. It shows what is the true nature of Christianity, and it is a rule whose practical value cannot but be felt constantly in our lives. Other religions require their votaries to receive everything upon trust; Christianity asks us to examine everything.

Error, superstition, bigotry, and fanaticism attempt to repress free discussion, by saying that there are certain things which are too sacred in their nature, or which have been too long held, or which are sanctioned by too many great and holy names, to permit their being subjected to the scrutiny of common eyes, or to be handled by common hands. In opposition to all this, Christianity requires us to examine everything - no matter by whom held; by what councils ordained; by what venerableness of antiquity sustained; or by what sacredness it may be invested. We are to receive no opinion until we are convinced that it is true; we are to be subjected to no pains or penalties for not believing what we do not perceive to be true; we are to be prohibited from examining no opinion which our fellow-men regard as true, and which they seek to make others believe. No popular current in favor of any doctrine; no influence which name and rank and learning can give it, is to commend it to us as certainly worthy of our belief. By whomsoever held, we are to examine it freely before we embrace it; but when we are convinced that it is true, it is to be held, no matter what current of popular opinion or prejudice maybe against it; no matter what ridicule may be poured upon it; and no matter though the belief of it may require us to die a martyr's death.

Thank you for your reply BB. You did some good research as it is good to see you referencing both Henry and Barnes, and both of whom see the sensation as occurring in the next life, being "fully met by a reference to the future world than by a reference to the state of things in the church on earth."

Let me first say that due to the excesses and often problematic nature of discerning true vs. false (so-called) “sign gifts,” then part of me is more desirous to hold to the cessationist position. However, objective analysis on my part of the arguments pro and con would not allow me that position, and which conclusion I came to while still a part of a fundamental Baptist church in which the pressure was on to condemn all Pentecostals along with cults. And yet i hold many cessationists in high regard as often being the better preachers overall.

While as you can see, I do not sanction the untouchable status or extremes certain faith healers presume and teach, but neither can I give God a sabbatical rest from doing as he ever did (especially in Acts) in confirming his word with the supernatural attestation of miraculous signs and wonders, through His instruments, as promised. (Mk. 16:17,18)

The problem is such sign gifts can be fabricated or imitated by the devil who seeks to operate in the same level that God does. Thus the first three miracles of Moses were duplicated by magicians. Faced with such some choose to take the safe but somewhat sterile route, that of the disallowing all miracles, or at least those done through man. On the other extreme of those who open the door so wide that both souls of God as well as demons could work such in the church.

However, faced with evil, God through Moses overcame them with good in showing greater power, and and gave the law. God will never be outdone by the devil, and and provides good laws for the use of things.

And it is a gospel promise that "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. " (John 14:12)

While "greater" here can mean in quantity, usually afforded by having more than 3 1/2 years in which to do miracles and other works, and perhaps "he" (which actual word is not in the Greek), is in the general sense, the point is that the church of the living and true God is manifested to be such not simply in character but also by supernatural attestation, for God has confirmed his word through the ages with supernatural manifestations, without which we would not even have the Scriptures (people did not listen to Moses because he had the right credentials from college). And therefore, the early church "went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. " (Mark 16:20) .

While this supernatural attestation is indeed primarily through the preaching of "the Gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24b) which convicts souls of sin and righteousness and judgment, and which effects manifest regeneration by faith in the risen Christ to save them by his sinless shed blood, the gospel promises in the record of Acts extend beyond that.

While the most overt supernatural attestation can be seen being given to new revelation, as in the case of Moses and the Lord Jesus and Peter and Paul and the other apostles, yet the working of miracles was not restricted to the apostles (the deacons Philip and Stephen also did miracles), nor simply to instituting the new covenant, but in both Testaments the Lord confirmed His word with supernatural attestation, and by which truth is established, and not simply by proclamation. "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. " (1 Corinthians 4:20) There is nothing that foretells that God would cease from doing as he ever did, and if we claim to be the New Testament church of the living God then we dare not put the book of Acts in a Museum.

Your argument that has God giving gifts in order to confirm His gospel but removing them as unnecessary because the Gospel is confirmed by the “sign and wonder” of the authority of God's word changing hearts, would also render the former class of supernatural attestation as unnecessary in the first century, as the gospel most certainly changed hearts then in manifest ways. But God giveth more grace.

The larger argument is that the New Testament, having being completed, then the attestation of signs and wonders was no longer needed or warranted. However, while we believe the New Testament is complete, yet apart from evidence the lost now are no more likely to be convinced of this or of the Divine inspiration of any of the Bible than the lost were that the words of Paul, etc. were inspired by God in his day.

Nor is it reasonable that the supernatural attestation which my be given in providing warrant for faith should be more restricted in scope or instrumentality than what the very Book we call them to believe testifies to.

In short, the supernatural attestation of both the changed life as well as other supernatural signs which are correspondent to the promises of Almighty God can be no less efficacious or needful today to the lost believer who is a seeker of truth, Especially in the light (or rather the darkness) of the pervasive plethora of persuasive perverted competing persuasions.

[It is true that those who will not hear Moses would not be persuaded even though one should rise from the dead. But this certainly does not mean that one must even know that there is an Old Testament out to be saved, as helpful as that would be, as seen in cases of Scripturally illiterate Gentiles in Acts, and in the light of Romans chapter 2, but it is needful that that they hear the truth given them, whatever essence of the law they had, and the words of the gospel, and such can be provided warrant to believe that gospel by supernatural Divine attestation.]

It it true that the cessationist rejection of gifts being given to men to work miracles does not disallow that God sovereignly can do miracles, yet not only does cessationism tend to foster little expectant faith that God would even sovereignly supernaturally heal etc., but this is a restriction that is more of a tradition of men than sound exegesis. The Holy Spirit says nothing in passages such as first Corinthians 12 which makes a distinction between other gifts and "sign gifts" as regards that the latter gifts are there only for limited time.

And thus the cessationist argument almost rests entirely upon first Corinthians 13 and the meaning of "that which is perfect." It is argued that the Greek word for “perfect” there is in the neuter and therefore cannot refer to Christ. However, I do not see it referring to Christ per se but to the perfect revelation of Christ. And as said, the characteristics which are to accompany the coming of that which is perfect do not fully correspond to what is realized with the completion of the New Testament Canon, but Scripturally this most easily is seen to refer to what will be realized with the coming of Christ.

It is also argued that that in the book of Acts we see less accounts of miracles in the latter chapters. However, this is due to the change in the narrative, from accounts of Paul's missionary activity as in chapter 19, in which "God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul," (Acts 19:11) to his latter captivity, which offered few occasions to do miracles. Yet, consistent with other , when such an occasion presented itself even in the last chapter of Acts Paul then we see exercising his gift to do miracles. (Acts 28:3-9)

As for the argument that little mention of miracle working is testified to by so-called “church fathers,” besides it being held that that we known only a small portion of what they all wrote, (and there is disagreement as to who they all were), yet a lack of the truly miraculous would be consistent with the slow spiritual declension of the church. Yet if the testimony of CFs is given weight in disallowing sign gifts in the post apostolic age, then it must be consistent, which it is not. It is said that,

“even Augustine of Hippo (a.D. 354- 430), who had originally adopted the view that miracles had ceased with the apostolic age, changed his opinion during the last two or three years of his life... A renowned twentieth-century specialist in Augustine, Peter Brown, stated that Augustine attempted to bring together various incidents of miracles "until they formed a single corpus, as compact and compelling as the miracles that had assisted the growth of the Early Church." http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/evidences/37mir.html

Of course, not all miraculous claims are true or of God, for as said, the devil is an imitator, and having defended the perpetuity of all gifts as a doctrine, i will now say that I personally consider that perhaps most claims of the operation of these sign gifts today are falsely attributed or abused.

As regards the former I speak mainly as concerns claims to prophecy, almost all of which I have heard were false when predictive, or without substantiation as having been spoken before the claimed fulfillment, while the rest mostly sound contrived, taking the Lord's name in vain, tickling ears with promises of great blessings, revival and favor to a church that in reality desperately needs to hear more of James 4, in repentance and cleansing. Or unjustly condemning others in order to elevate themselves. However, I do believe God can give someone a word from him, though such does not have the level of authority of Scripture and it is subject to it.

I also think that even some cessationist have gifts such as the word of wisdom or discerning of spirits, even though they are not be aware that it is a a sign gift.

Claims of healings also often have a poor record of verification, yet I'm certain that God does heal through persons so gifted as well as sovereignly, and I myself have been the beneficiary of healing through the former. As for tongues, while I cannot say that most are false, rarely are they exercised after the biblical manner in an assembly.

Yet the fact that something is often fabricated or abused does not mean the genuine does not exist, or that the practice must necessarily be placed in suspension, as the Scriptural response to abuse seen in 1Cor. 14 was to institute regulations so that it may be efficacious.

Cessationists also challenge those who believe in the perpetuity of gifts with the question as to why they do not go to hospitals and heal all the sick that are therein. That seems like a valid question if the those who believe in the perpetuity of gifts believe that is God's will to always heal souls, in which itself is not as a true doctrine.

Some cessationists also argue that the church that had the most spiritual gifts was also most carnal, which is a very dangerous argument for it infers that spiritual gifts fosters carnality. But what it does show is as said before that charisms do to not equal character.

In summation, doctrinally i do not find that cessationist arguments (and i have not dealt with them all here) to be warranted, either in precept or in principle, and pray that God will do more, especially in the present skepticism and militant attacks on the faith, for in the face of such the early church prayed, "And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. " (Acts 4:29-30)

However, i myself am sadly hardly much of an example of a Pentecostal, yet i must oppose the abuse and excess and (worst of all) fabrications that so often characterizes such, to which leaders mainly will get an account. But while this effects a negative testimony of the gifts and the faith, and is Pentecostalism's own worst enemy, yet it is also true that, as regards excesses, it is the pot that boils over that gets the attention, and not the one that is not even simmering. That being the institutionalized church, which is easy to slip into unless we seek to live a life of faith in such a way that if the Holy Spirit was removed and God did not manifestly act then all would collapse or die. Otherwise it must resort to other means, from the sword of men to Bingo to other worldly ways and gimmicks and hype.

A Christian from a persecuted country is said to have wryly remarked after visiting America, “the one thing that amazed me about American Christians is the great things they can do without God.”

Thank you for considering the long explanation my understanding of this issue. May walk in the light that God gives us and our consecration keep pace with His revelation.

What the naysayers obviously want . . . and what you even may mostly want

is a fool proof formula that works flawlessly all the time in determining

—a word from The Lord
—an authentic prophetic source from God vs an imposter vs a crazy person vs a neophyte etc.

etc.

Ain’t gonna happen.

God doesn’t work that way about such things.

The closest are the Biblical criteria . . .

—do they believe Jesus came in the flesh; is He lord of their lives
—do their lives show it in fruit.

God gave some criteria in the Old Testament. Then violated them Himself.

David ate the shewbread and gave to his companions.

About as soon as God establishes a new ritual or formula, he messes it up.

He recognizes that those quickly become THE DEADLINESS OF RELIGION vs RELATIONSHIP.

HE WANTS A DANCE.

He wants to lead the dance.

All that other stuff is !!!CONTROL!!! phreaque stuff from the flesh and it only yields death.

People have been trying to package God into tidy little boxes from the beginning.

he won’t fit.

HE’LL *NEVER* FIT.

This likely triggers lots of bristling outrage . . . yet the truth is still the truth.

And this is my area of professional expertise.

In my face to face life and on FR, the folks MOST !DEMANDING! in one way or another and one degree or another for a formula

and/or

for a stereotypic precisely pinned down nth’s degree proof in Scripture for a fool proof scrip to follow . . .

are not comfortable without the clear scrip and RELIGIOUS RITUALS THEY CAN !!!!CONTROL!!!! and feel SAFE THEREBY.

GOD WANTS *NONE* OF THAT.

HE WANTS A DANCE.

HE WANTS TO LEAD THE DANCE.

He wants us to TRUST HIM to lead the dance and to keep the mashers away.

Without RELIGION—ONLY RELATIONSHIP.

All the demands on this thread have been for me to offer, prove and provide RELIGION to buttress my perspective.

No thanks. That’s death. Why would I want to offer death to folks I love?

The Lord confirms His written Word and His prophetic word a variety of ways tailored not only to each individual but also to where each individual is at the time.

Virtually every authentic Christian I know has had at least once in their lives a period of great travail and in the midst of it from long tearful seeking God for solution and answers, they are reading along in the Bible and a verse jumps out at them with Holy Spirit quickening in some personally clear way that that verse has a specific meaning and answer for their desperate need.

In most respects, it’s no more complicated than that. It’s just that God is creative and doesn’t usually prefer to do the same things very many times in a row.

HE LEADS THE DANCE. And He leads it somewhat uniquely with each partner.

The ONLY ONES I see ignoring that verse on this thread is y'all. Please point out on the thread ANYWHERE y'all have noted,

I realize that some people skip over the posts they don't want to read or those of a particular poster they may be irked at, but, good grief!, that verse has been mentioned many times here! Just go look for yourself, AND, Metmom did not omit it in this post! But, please, it sure would be great if you could actually READ the verse in its entirety and not just the part you may prefer.

From Barnes' Note on the Bible:

I would that ye all spake with tongues - "It is an important endowment, and is not, in its place, to be undervalued. It maybe of great service in the cause of truth, and if properly regulated, and not abused, I would rejoice if these extraordinary endowments were conferred on all. I have no envy against anyone who possesses it; no opposition to the endowment; but I wish that it should not be overvalued; and would wish to exalt into proper estimation the more useful but humble gift of speaking for the edification of the church."

Greater is he that prophesieth - This gift is of more value, and he really occupies a more elevated rank in the church. He is more "useful." The idea here is, that talents are not to he estimated by their "brilliancy," but by their "usefulness." The power of speaking in an unknown tongue was certainly a more striking endowment than that of speaking so as simply to be "useful," and yet the apostle tells us that the latter is the more valuable. So it is always. A man who is useful, however humble and unknown he may be, really occupies a more elevated and venerable rank than the man of most splendid talents and dazzling eloquence, who accomplishes nothing in saving the souls of people.

And Gill's is pretty good, too:

I would that ye all spake with tongues,.... This the apostle says, to prevent being misunderstood; for his view was not to bring the gift of tongues into contempt, or to represent it as at all times, and on all occasions, useless and insignificant; nor would he be thought to envy them this gift, or beat them off of desiring it; for, for his own part, he could wish they all had it, was it the will of God; though he must needs say, that prophesying was most desirable by him, as being most profitable;

but rather that ye prophesied; he wished them all prophets, as Moses did all the Lord's people; he was not against their speaking with tongues, but this was the most eligible, for which he gives this reason: for greater is he that prophesieth, than he that speaketh with tongues; that is, he is more useful and profitable to men, and so consequently more honourable, in higher esteem, and more valued, and in greater dignity, being in a more serviceable post and office, and which is more beneficial and advantageous to mankind: except he interpret; what he said; and then he might stand upon an equal foot, and be equally useful with him that prophesieth; but this everyone could not do that spake with tongues; for speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues, were two distinct gifts; see 1 Corinthians 12:10 and though a man that had the gift of tongues might understand what he himself said to his own edification, yet not be able to interpret it to the understanding and edification of others; and if he could not do this, his speaking was to no purpose: hence the apostle advises such an one to pray that he might interpret, have the gift of interpretation also, in 1 Corinthians 14:13.

That the church may receive edifying: which otherwise cannot be thought it should, or be expected, and then an opportunity and ordinance would be wholly lost.

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