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How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind
Strange Notions ^ | Dr. Benjamin Wiker

Posted on 05/19/2013 4:54:01 AM PDT by NYer

Antony Flew

EDITOR'S NOTE: For the last half of the twentieth century, Antony Flew (1923-2010) was the world's most famous atheist. Long before Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris began taking swipes at religion, Flew was the preeminent spokesman for unbelief.

However in 2004, he shocked the world by announcing he had come to believe in God. While never embracing Christianity—Flew only believed in the deistic, Aristotelian conception of God—he became one of the most high-profile and surprising atheist converts. In 2007, he recounted his conversion in a book titled There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. Some critics suggested Flew's mental capacity had declined and therefore we should question the credibility of his conversion. Others hailed Flew's book as a legitimate and landmark publication.

A couple months before the book's release, Flew sat down with Strange Notions contributor Dr. Benjamin Wiker for an interview about his book, his conversion, and the reasons that led him to God. Read below and enjoy!
 


 
Dr. Benjamin Wiker: You say in There is a God, that "it may well be that no one is as surprised as I am that my exploration of the Divine has after all these years turned from denial...to discovery." Everyone else was certainly very surprised as well, perhaps all the more so since on our end, it seemed so sudden. But in There is a God, we find that it was actually a very gradual process—a "two decade migration," as you call it. God was the conclusion of a rather long argument, then. But wasn't there a point in the "argument" where you found yourself suddenly surprised by the realization that "There is a God" after all? So that, in some sense, you really did "hear a Voice that says" in the evidence itself "'Can you hear me now?'"

Antony Flew: There were two factors in particular that were decisive. One was my growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe. The second was my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself—which is far more complex than the physical Universe—can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source. I believe that the origin of life and reproduction simply cannot be explained from a biological standpoint despite numerous efforts to do so. With every passing year, the more that was discovered about the richness and inherent intelligence of life, the less it seemed likely that a chemical soup could magically generate the genetic code. The difference between life and non-life, it became apparent to me, was ontological and not chemical. The best confirmation of this radical gulf is Richard Dawkins' comical effort to argue in The God Delusion that the origin of life can be attributed to a "lucky chance." If that's the best argument you have, then the game is over. No, I did not hear a Voice. It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.

Wiker: You are famous for arguing for a presumption of atheism, i.e., as far as arguments for and against the existence of God, the burden of proof lies with the theist. Given that you believe that you only followed the evidence where it led, and it led to theism, it would seem that things have now gone the other way, so that the burden of proof lies with the atheist. He must prove that God doesn't exist. What are your thoughts on that?

There Is a GodFlew: I note in my book that some philosophers indeed have argued in the past that the burden of proof is on the atheist. I think the origins of the laws of nature and of life and the Universe point clearly to an intelligent Source. The burden of proof is on those who argue to the contrary.

Wiker: As for evidence, you cite a lot of the most recent science, yet you remark that your discovery of the Divine did not come through "experiments and equations," but rather, "through an understanding of the structures they unveil and map." Could you explain? Does that mean that the evidence that led you to God is not really, at heart, scientific?

Flew: It was empirical evidence, the evidence uncovered by the sciences. But it was a philosophical inference drawn from the evidence. Scientists as scientists cannot make these kinds of philosophical inferences. They have to speak as philosophers when they study the philosophical implications of empirical evidence.

Wiker: You are obviously aware of the spate of recent books by such atheists as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. They think that those who believe in God are behind the times. But you seem to be politely asserting that they are ones who are behind the times, insofar as the latest scientific evidence tends strongly toward—or perhaps even demonstrates—a theistic conclusion. Is that a fair assessment of your position?

Flew: Yes, indeed. I would add that Dawkins is selective to the point of dishonesty when he cites the views of scientists on the philosophical implications of the scientific data.

Two noted philosophers, one an agnostic (Anthony Kenny) and the other an atheist (Thomas Nagel), recently pointed out that Dawkins has failed to address three major issues that ground the rational case for God. As it happens, these are the very same issues that had driven me to accept the existence of a God: the laws of nature, life with its teleological organization, and the existence of the Universe.

Wiker: You point out that the existence of God and the existence of evil are actually two different issues, which would therefore require two distinct investigations. But in the popular literature—even in much of the philosophical literature—the two issues are regularly conflated. Especially among atheists, the presumption is that the non-existence of God simply follows upon the existence of evil. What is the danger of such conflation? How as a theist do you now respond?

Flew: I should clarify that I am a deist. I do not accept any claim of divine revelation though I would be happy to study any such claim (and continue to do so in the case of Christianity). For the deist, the existence of evil does not pose a problem because the deist God does not intervene in the affairs of the world. The religious theist, of course, can turn to the free-will defense (in fact I am the one who first coined the phrase free-will defense). Another relatively recent change in my philosophical views is my affirmation of the freedom of the will.

Wiker: According to There is a God, you are not what might be called a "thin theist," that is, the evidence led you not merely to accept that there is a "cause" of nature, but "to accept the existence of a self-existent, immutable, immaterial, omnipotent, and omniscient Being." How far away are you, then, from accepting this Being as a person rather than a set of characteristics, however accurate they may be? (I'm thinking of C. S. Lewis' remark that a big turning point for him, in accepting Christianity, was in realizing that God was not a "place"—a set of characteristics, like a landscape—but a person.)

Flew: I accept the God of Aristotle who shares all the attributes you cite. Like Lewis I believe that God is a person but not the sort of person with whom you can have a talk. It is the ultimate being, the Creator of the Universe.

Wiker: Do you plan to write a follow-up book to There is a God?

Flew: As I said in opening the book, this is my last will and testament.
 
 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Religion & Science; Skeptics/Seekers
KEYWORDS: antonyflew; atheists; bookreview; bornagain; convert; epiphany
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Dr. Benjamin Wiker is, first of all, a husband and a father of seven children. He graduated from Furman University with a B.A. in Political Philosophy. He has an M.A. in Religion and a Ph.D. in Theological Ethics, both from Vanderbilt University. Dr. Wiker taught full time for thirteen years, first at Marquette University, then St. Mary's University (MN), Thomas Aquinas College (CA), and finally Franciscan University (OH). During these many years, he offered a wide variety of courses in philosophy, theology, history, the history and philosophy of science, the history of ethics, the Great Books, Latin, and even mathematics. He is now a full-time writer and speaker, with eleven books published including 10 Books That Screwed Up the World: And 5 Others That Didn't Help (Regnery, 2008); The Darwin Myth: The Life and Lies of Charles Darwin (Regnery, 2009); and Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God (Emmaus Road, 2008). Follow Dr. Wiker at BenjaminWiker.com.
1 posted on 05/19/2013 4:54:01 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 05/19/2013 4:54:31 AM PDT by NYer (“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possibl)
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To: NYer

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


3 posted on 05/19/2013 5:22:06 AM PDT by Keli Kilohana (Editor, ZARR CHASM CHRONICAL [sic], Sore, WV)
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To: NYer

Thomas Aquinas arrived at the same conclusion 800 years ago. If we use our senses and look around the only reasonable conclusion is that God exists.


4 posted on 05/19/2013 5:44:02 AM PDT by Repulican Donkey
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To: NYer

A famous theologian (forget which one) suggested that we simply ask the unbeliever to prove there is no hell. We sees glimpses every day. We all know death and disease and mutations should not be, which is why so many work to eradicate the effects. If it was natural, why bother? Especially for the evolutionist.


5 posted on 05/19/2013 5:55:02 AM PDT by huldah1776
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To: Keli Kilohana

He traded one form of unbelief for another. The lost suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It takes the Holy Spirit to open ones eyes to the triune God.


6 posted on 05/19/2013 6:15:47 AM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: NYer

A case for God: In the complexity of the universe, what if one piece of the puzzle was missing. What if there was no gravity, what if there was no weak force, what if there was no DNA, what if there was no hydrogen, what if there were no protons, what if there was no fusion to power the stars, what if there were no synapses, what if time didn’t exist? Everything is necessary and in balance. Liberals exist to give a face to subversive evil. (Had to stick that in, just in case someone was wondering)


7 posted on 05/19/2013 6:17:22 AM PDT by Revolutionary ("Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition!")
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To: NYer
...it would seem that things have now gone the other way, so that the burden of proof lies with the atheist. He must prove that God doesn't exist. What are your thoughts on that?

Things (i.e., science) have always been that way; the atheists simply have ignored the scientific principle that you can't prove a negative. When an atheist says, "God doesn't exist" you simply have to say, "Prove it." When the atheist invariably resorts to crowning himself the intellectual superior in the debate:

Some critics suggested Flew's mental capacity had declined...

play the game in his realm by pointing out that his philosophy (science) requires that a) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and b) You can't prove a negative.

8 posted on 05/19/2013 6:42:36 AM PDT by randog (Tap into America!)
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To: Keli Kilohana

Keli Kilohana, I am amazed that there are some believers who cannot rejoice when an unbeliever takes a step closer to the truth.

By the way, the James passage you quote was in regard to so-called Christians who claimed to be Christian because they believed in God, yet demonstrated no evidence (works) in their lives to indicate that they truly repented or had the Holy Spirit living within their hearts.

I pray the Mr. Flew, who said he is studying the claims of Christianity, will take that final step of trusting in Christ as his Savior.

Remember when Jesus said to one who was seeking answers from
Him - “You are not far from the Kingdom of God”. Rejoice in Mr. Flew’s step toward the Truth and pray that he will continue to the completed truth in Jesus as the Truth.


9 posted on 05/19/2013 7:08:14 AM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: NYer; fastrock; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; Finatic; fellowpatriot; MarineMom613; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

10 posted on 05/19/2013 7:10:16 AM PDT by narses
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To: crghill

re: “He traded one form of unbelief for another. The lost suppress the truth in unrighteousness. It takes the Holy Spirit to open ones eyes to the triune God.”

I say the same thing to you as I said to Keli. So, Mr. Flew’s step closer to the Truth that there is a God who created the Universe is trading one form of unbelief for another??

Some “Christians” are so sour and dour that they cannot rejoice when a lost sheep begins to turn toward Real Truth?

Yes, Mr. Flew is not there yet, but he at least is doing what Paul mentions in Romans 1 - he is seeing the “clear evidence of God’s existence in God’s creation”.

Lord Above, crghill, have a little grace and mercy. Pray for Mr. Flew to continue to seek the Lord - he even admits that he is studying the claims of Christianity - at least he is looking in the right direction.

Your Calvinism is showing as well. No freewill.


11 posted on 05/19/2013 7:13:48 AM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: NYer
I think the origins of the laws of nature and of life and the Universe point clearly to an intelligent Source. The burden of proof is on those who argue to the contrary. —Antony Flew
It's interesting to me that an intelligent and accomplished man would take a lifetime to come to such a simple, and (according to scripture) self-evident conclusion.

Thanks for posting this article.
12 posted on 05/19/2013 7:59:22 AM PDT by rpierce (We have taglines now? :)
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To: NYer

Also, in that he doesn’t mention it here, the writings of Roy Abraham Varghese and Gerald Schroeder, were also primarily convincing to him.


13 posted on 05/19/2013 8:14:24 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: rusty schucklefurd

“I pray the Mr. Flew, who said he is studying the claims of Christianity, will take that final step of trusting in Christ as his Savior.”

Flew died several years ago. He made no public confession of belief in Christ, but God is merciful. I hope God took into account that Flew was genuinely interested in the truth and (it seems) wanted to know it with all his heart.


14 posted on 05/19/2013 8:19:29 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

re: “Flew died several years ago. He made no public confession of belief in Christ, but God is merciful. I hope God took into account that Flew was genuinely interested in the truth and (it seems) wanted to know it with all his heart.”

I didn’t know that and sorry to hear of his passing. He did mention in the interview that he had been examining the Christian faith. One can only hope that he took the final steps to Jesus before he died.


15 posted on 05/19/2013 8:35:51 AM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: NYer

Why is it, that proof of ones belief is even considered to be necessary?


16 posted on 05/19/2013 9:18:15 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: NYer
As for evidence, you cite a lot of the most recent science, yet you remark that your discovery of the Divine did not come through "experiments and equations," but rather, "through an understanding of the structures they unveil and map."

Yep, this has been my path as well. In trying to understand the physical world and the rules by which it operates, I was lead to the Designer who built it and wrote the operating system.

The last book I read, "Heaven is For Real: A Little Boy's Astounding Story of His Trip to Heaven and Back" and current book I'm reading, "Heaven is Real, But So is Hell" have given me the answers I've been looking for to prove the truth of their titles.

And, both have more than lived up to their titles. After all I've learned through study and experience, I am 100% convinced of the reality of Heaven, Hell and the wonders and the consequences laid out in the Bible.

It's absolutely real. And we are almost out of time.

Flew is lucky to have found the truth before it was too late. I found way more than I wanted to know about what happens to atheists, and everyone else who turns away, by reading "My Descent into Death: A Second Chance at Life'.

Parts of his experience still shake me when I think about it. I think at some level I know his experience was real and awaits me, too. It waits for all of us who take that path.

17 posted on 05/19/2013 9:48:38 AM PDT by GBA (Here in the Matrix, life is but a dream.)
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To: stuartcr

God exists and loves you no matter if there are 100 billions believing that or no one. However, when someone with insight and dedication starts with atheistic beliefs and for intellectual reasons alone understands his error, then it is remarkable and might be informative to others, who struggle with the same error.


18 posted on 05/19/2013 9:51:19 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: rusty schucklefurd

Mr Flew died in 2010. I’m comforted to know that not one of God’s elect will be lost. It is my hope he is among them.

Lastly, freewill assumes one can choose perfect good. My bible says that mankind was born into sin and is a slave to it until set free by Christ. I’ll keep my soteriology.


19 posted on 05/19/2013 9:51:37 AM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: crghill; rusty schucklefurd
mankind was born into sin and is a slave to it until set free by Christ

Indeed. That is Catholic teaching on free will: we have it solely because Christ gives it to us.

20 posted on 05/19/2013 11:10:40 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

Since God exists and loves us no matter what, why the need to prove it to someone? God knows what is in one’s heart, right?


21 posted on 05/19/2013 1:38:14 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: NYer

I strongly commend another of Wikers books....”Moral Darwinism, How We Became Hedonists”. I began about 1 week ago re-reading this work. It is one of the best books on the history of evolution I have ever read.


22 posted on 05/19/2013 1:52:32 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter (')
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To: crghill

re: “Lastly, freewill assumes one can choose perfect good. My bible says that mankind was born into sin and is a slave to it until set free by Christ. I’ll keep my soteriology.”

Then, my question to you is, how do you know you are one of God’s elect? Is it possible for someone to think they are saved, but are not? Matthew 7:21?

The heart is deceptive, so are emotions - how do you KNOW that you really accepted Christ? Because you said some words of belief??


23 posted on 05/19/2013 2:59:25 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: stuartcr

Why is it, that proof of ones belief is even considered to be necessary?=================
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
..........[Stephen Roberts]


Because either position is ultimately BELIEF. Belief may operate in the total absence of proof.


24 posted on 05/19/2013 3:37:40 PM PDT by S.O.S121.500
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To: S.O.S121.500

Yes


25 posted on 05/19/2013 4:42:12 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: rusty schucklefurd

Anyone can say they believe, but how does one truly believe something today, that was unbelievable to them yesterday?


26 posted on 05/19/2013 4:47:52 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: annalex

Yes, I believe the Bible teaches that all mankind is born with a sin nature, a bent toward sinning - but, if it is impossible for someone to respond to God’s love unless they are given a special call, then God chooses some for salvation and chooses some for Hell. I just cannot believe that God predestines people to Hell. I also do not see how God is not responsible for evil if everything that happens, even our choosing to sin, is preordained by God. That is not the God of the Bible.

I know that there is, somehow, involved in salvation, God’s sovereign work taking place, but I also believe we have the ability to respond to God’s grace. Without that ability to respond to that grace we cannot be saved. I believe God gives that ability to everyone. Some believe, some reject, and all are held responsible for their choices. I do not believe that God fixes it so certain people cannot respond. That is not the God of the Bible.

We cannot achieve salvation by our own merit. God alone provides that finished work of salvation, but God gives us the choice. How many times in Scripture does God tell us to choose? To choose to obey. Jesus said, “Whosoever will may come”.

The Apostle Paul argues in Romans 1 that no one has an excuse not to know that God exists, because God’s work in creation is clearly seen. How can people be without excuse if they have no ability to comprehend God’s acts?

I have many friends who are Calvinistic in their view point and I know they love the Lord. I just do not believe that we are robots who just follow some pre-programmed map. We just agree not to argue about it.


27 posted on 05/19/2013 5:17:37 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: NYer

“It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.”

Exactly.

And I’d like to say something here that might be considered off topic, but it’s a thought I’ve had before and it’s occurring to me again now.

It involves paganism I suppose, rather than religion, but perhaps some will see the relevance (if there is any!)

Isn’t it interesting how pagans would want to get a lock of a person’s hair, or some other small body remnant in order to cast a spell on that person. For how many centuries was this considered just “superstition” by more educated (for want of a better word) people.

And yet, and yet, weren’t those old witch doctors exactly right? Now that we know (by watching CSI if nothing else) that your entire individual physical profile is present even in a lock of hair?

I thought of this a while ago and I still find it pretty mind boggling.


28 posted on 05/19/2013 5:40:48 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: stuartcr
Anyone can say they believe, but how does one truly believe something today, that was unbelievable to them yesterday?

It's something inside you...Bible says it's spirit...Something is planted in your inner being and you just know...

Of course there's 'head' belief which may change depending on the direction the wind blows...

29 posted on 05/19/2013 5:51:08 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: rusty schucklefurd

Mr. Flew is dead.


30 posted on 05/19/2013 6:11:20 PM PDT by Keli Kilohana (Editor, ZARR CHASM CHRONICAL [sic], Sore, WV)
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To: Iscool

So people cannot really just decide to believe something?


31 posted on 05/19/2013 6:30:31 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: rusty schucklefurd

No, I believe because God has given me the “gifts” of faith and repentance. It has nothing to do with me.


32 posted on 05/19/2013 6:46:36 PM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: stuartcr

What is in your heart is not static. Man who is aware of God’s existence will be free to act in the knowledge of the purpose of his life, and a man who is not aware of it cannot be free.


33 posted on 05/19/2013 7:07:16 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: rusty schucklefurd
if it is impossible for someone to respond to God’s love unless they are given a special call, then God chooses some for salvation and chooses some for Hell

This premise is not accurate. It is possible for one to respond to God's love, first hesitantly or instinctively, and then gradually growing in faith and knowledge. Divine predestination occurs outside of human linear time and therefore takes into account the free-will response of faith. "when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Romans 5:10)

So God does not choose anyone for hell: "[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).

I have many friends who are Calvinistic in their view point

Then witness to them. It is a severe error.

34 posted on 05/19/2013 7:15:36 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

re: “So God does not choose anyone for hell: “[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4).”

I completely concur with your assessment of the passage you quote above. I also agree with your view that Calvinists are in error, but woe to any who try to witness to them about that.


35 posted on 05/19/2013 11:06:17 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: crghill

re: “No, I believe because God has given me the “gifts” of faith and repentance. It has nothing to do with me.”

But what guarantee do you have that you are really exercising the “gifts” of real faith and repentance? You don’t know because according to Calvinism, it is God who decides who is saved and who isn’t, even though you may “think” you are, you may be mistaken.

People can believe they believe, but are not one of the elect. How do you know that you are one of the elect? Just because you think you believe in God or in Christ? It has nothing to do with you - it is all God’s sovereign choice, right? Maybe you just think you believe, but are deluded. You have no assurance that you are one of the Elect because the decision is outside of anything you think, feel, or believe. It is all God’s sovereign choice and you have no access to that information according to the Calvinist view.

You may think you’ve been given the gift of faith from God, but since all of that is outside of anything you do or think or “think” you believe, you have no assurance that that means you are one of the Elect.


36 posted on 05/19/2013 11:21:59 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: annalex

I do not understand what that means.


37 posted on 05/20/2013 3:44:12 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: rusty schucklefurd
woe to any who try to witness to them about that

Why, this is what the Holy Scripture is for. While they beat their chests a lot how their views derive from the Holy Scripture, a closer examination shows them to be a counterscriptural hoax. They pick verses with "predestination" in it as if the word in scripture has the same meaning they inserted to it.

38 posted on 05/20/2013 5:17:12 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: stuartcr
You wrote:
Since God exists and loves us no matter what, why the need to prove it to someone? God knows what is in one’s heart, right?

I commented that the syllogism is false because the content of your heart depends on the knowledge you have. Knowledge is good, therefore proving things is good. This is why people want to not simply make up their mind internally about God and sit with it, but rather discuss it and thus gain objective knowledge and be better men.

39 posted on 05/20/2013 5:20:58 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

How do you know that the contents of one’s heart depends on the knowledge one has? That’s quite an assumption.

Why wouldn’t God know what is in one’s heart, even if that person did not know God? Isn’t that limiting God’s ability to know something, making man’s knowledge a prerequisite for God’s ability to know what is in a man’s heart?


40 posted on 05/20/2013 5:52:56 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: rusty schucklefurd

I’ll quote Luther....Away from me Satan, I have been baptized.

The objective v. the subjective. I’m more concerned with understanding Gods greatness than I am with my assurance. I don’t know why it’s such a big issue for you but I believe so it’s not such a big issue for me. The question is why do I believe? I believe because God has given me faith. Praise be to God.


41 posted on 05/20/2013 8:09:37 AM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: crghill

re: “The question is why do I believe? I believe because God has given me faith. Praise be to God.?”

I think the question for the Calvinist is, not “why” do I believe, but “how do I know that I really do believe”? “How do you know you don’t just think you believe?”

The real question is, what do we base our confidence in regarding salvation - it is based on the promise of God’s Word. He said that if you repent, place your trust in Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection - you are saved. It is not “if you are one of the elect you’ll believe”, no, it is “for whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life”. It is His promise. It is available to all who are willing to turn to Him.


42 posted on 05/20/2013 9:07:10 AM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: rusty schucklefurd

I would direct you to Romans chapter 9 and Ephesians chapter 1. You’re welcome to your opinion but your argument could be turned against you. How do you know you’ve repented and placed your trust in him? What happens if you unplace your trust? How do you know you believe?

Armenians and Calvinists have argued this forever. I’m not going to change your mind and you won’t change mine so lets revel in the fact that we both believe in the triune God and his Son Jesus. If you ever become reformed, it won’t be because I reformed you. Enjoy Christ.

Blessings to you.


43 posted on 05/20/2013 10:05:11 AM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: crghill

re: “Armenians and Calvinists have argued this forever. I’m not going to change your mind and you won’t change mine so lets revel in the fact that we both believe in the triune God and his Son Jesus.”

Agreed. I’m kind of in-between Armenian and Calvinist, but as you said, let’s rejoice that both of us know the Lord and will meet one day in God’s Heaven where we will see “not as through a glass darkly”, but clearly. God bless you as well.


44 posted on 05/20/2013 12:11:30 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: rusty schucklefurd

Well said!


45 posted on 05/20/2013 3:26:44 PM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: stuartcr

The point is not what God knows — obviously, everything, — but how to change your heart. For that, as a general proposition, knowledge is necessary. Why is that a far assumption? — unless you meant the physiological heart as the blood organ.


46 posted on 05/20/2013 5:12:35 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

I disagree. I do not think knowledge is required for a change of heart, I believe God does it for us.

I still don’t see why the need to tell everyone how and what they believe.


47 posted on 05/21/2013 5:49:43 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: crghill

Why do either of you feel the need to change the others mind?


48 posted on 05/21/2013 5:50:57 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr

I don’t feel a need to change minds but I do feel a need to provide a reason for the hope that is in me. Something scripture instructs me to do. Plus, I feel there is great benefit in understanding doctrine aright.


49 posted on 05/21/2013 1:37:29 PM PDT by crghill (Silly Mormons, God is triune.)
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To: crghill

Good for you.


50 posted on 05/21/2013 1:42:59 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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