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Free Will-- A Slave
Spurgeon.org ^ | December 2, 1855 | C. H. Spurgeon

Posted on 06/25/2013 3:08:30 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans

Free Will-- A Slave

A Sermon

(No. 52)

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, December 2, 1855, by the

REV. C. H. Spurgeon

At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."—John 5:40.

his is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men.

Our four points, this morning, shall be: First—that every man is dead, because it says: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have LIFE." Secondly—that there is life in Jesus Christ: "Ye will not come to ME, that ye might have life." Thirdly—that there is life in Christ Jesus for every one that comes for it: "Ye will not come to me, THAT YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE;" implying that all who go will have life. And fourthly—the gist of the text lies here, that no man by nature ever will come to Christ, for the text says, "YE WILL NOT COME TO ME, that ye might have life." So far from asserting that men of their own wills ever do such a thing, it boldly and flatly denies it, and says, "Ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life." Why, beloved, I am almost ready to exclaim, Have all free-willers no knowledge that they dare to run in the teeth of inspiration? Have all those that deny the doctrine of grace no sense? Have they so departed from God that they wrest this to prove free-will; whereas the text says, "Ye WILL NOT come to me that ye might have life."

I. First, then, our text implies THAT MEN BY NATURE ARE DEAD.

No being needs to go after life if he has life in himself. The text speaks very strongly when it says, "Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life." Though it saith it not in words, yet it doth in effect affirm that men need a life more than they have themselves. My hearers, we are all dead unless we have been begotten unto a lively hope. First, we are all of us, by nature, legally dead—"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt die the death," said God to Adam; and though Adam did not die in that moment naturally, he died legally; that is to say death was recorded against him. As soon as, at the Old Bailey, the judge puts on the black cap and pronounces the sentence, the man is reckoned to be dead at law. Though perhaps a month may intervene before he is brought on the scaffold to endure the sentence of the law, yet the law looks upon him as a dead man. It is impossible for him to transact anything. He cannot inherit, he cannot bequeath; he is nothing—he is a dead man. The country considers him not as being alive in it at all. There is an election—he is not asked for his vote because he is considered as dead. He is shut up in his condemned cell, and he is dead. Ah! and ye ungodly sinners who have never had life in Christ, ye are alive this morning, by reprieve, but do ye know that ye are legally dead; that God considers you as such, that in the day when your father Adam touched the fruit, and when you yourselves did sin, God, the Eternal Judge, put on the black cap and condemned you? You talk mightily of your own standing, and goodness, and morality—where is it? Scripture saith, ye are "condemned already." Ye are not to wait to be condemned at the judgment-day—that will be the execution of the sentence—ye are "condemned already." In the moment ye sinned; your names were all written in the black book of justice; every one was then sentenced by God to death, unless he found a substitute, in the person of Christ, for his sins. What would you think if you were to go into the Old Bailey, and see the condemned culprit sitting in his cell, laughing and merry? You would say, "The man is a fool, for he is condemned, and is to be executed; yet how merry he is." Ah! and how foolish is the worldly man, who, while sentence is recorded against him, lives in merriment and mirth! Do you think the sentence of God is of no effect? Thinkest thou that thy sin which is written with an iron pen on the rocks for ever hath no horrors in it? God hath said thou art condemned already. If thou wouldst but feel this, it would mingle bitters in thy sweet cups of joy; thy dances would be stopped, thy laughter quenched in sighing, if thou wouldst recollect that thou art condemned already. We ought all to weep, if we lay this to our souls: that by nature we have no life in God's sight; we are actually, positively condemned; death is recorded against us, and we are considered in ourselves now, in God's sight, as much dead as if we were actually cast into hell; we are condemned here by sin, we do not yet suffer the penalty of it, but it is written against us, and we are legally dead, nor can we find life unless we find legal life in the person of Christ, of which more by-and-by.

But, besides being legally dead, we are also spiritually dead. For not only did the sentence pass in the book, but it passed in the heart; it entered the conscience; it operated on the soul, on the judgment, on the imagination, and on everything.

"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," was not only fulfilled by the sentence recorded, but by something which took place in Adam. Just as, in a certain moment, when this body shall die, the blood stops, the pulse ceases, the breath no longer comes from the lungs, so in the day that Adam did eat that fruit his soul died; his imagination lost its mighty power to climb into celestial things and see heaven, his will lost its power always to choose that which is good, his judgment lost all ability to judge between right and wrong decidedly and infallibly, though something was retained in conscience; his memory became tainted, liable to hold evil things, and let righteous things glide away; every power of him ceased as to its moral vitality. Goodness was the vitality of his powers—that departed. Virtue, holiness, integrity, these were the life of man; but when these departed man became dead. And now, every man, so far as spiritual things are concerned, is "dead in trespasses and sins" spiritually. Nor is the soul less dead in a carnal man, than the body is when committed to the grave; it is actually and positively dead—not by a metaphor, for Paul speaketh not in metaphor, when he affirms, "You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins." But my hearers, again, I would I could preach to your hearts concerning this subject. It was bad enough when I described death as having been recorded; but now I speak of it as having actually taken place in your hearts. Ye are not what ye once were; ye are not what ye were in Adam, not what ye were created. Man was made pure and holy. Ye are not the perfect creatures of which some boast; ye are altogether fallen, ye have gone out of the way, ye have become corrupt and filthy. Oh! listen not to the siren song of those who tell you of your moral dignity, and your mighty elevation in matters of salvation. Ye are not perfect; that great word, "ruin," is written on your heart; and death is stamped upon your spirit. Do not conceive, O moral man, that thou wilt be able to stand before God in thy morality, for thou art nothing but a carcass embalmed in legality, a corpse arrayed in some fine robes, but still corrupt in God's sight. And think not, O thou possessor of natural religion! that thou mayest by thine own might and power make thyself acceptable to God. Why, man! thou art dead! and thou mayest array the dead as gloriously as thou pleasest, but still it would be a solemn mockery. There lieth queen Cleopatra—put the crown upon her head, deck her in royal robes, let her sit in state; but what a cold chill runs through you when you pass by her. She is fair now, even in her death—but how horrible it is to stand by the side even of a dead queen, celebrated for her majestic beauty! So you may be glorious in your beauty, fair, and amiable, and lovely; you put the crown of honesty upon your head, and wear about you all the garments of uprightness, but unless God has quickened thee, O man! unless the Spirit has had dealings with thy soul, thou art in God's sight as obnoxious as the chilly corpse is to thyself. Thou wouldst not choose to live with a corpse sitting at thy table; nor doth God love that thou shouldst be in his sight. He is angry with thee every day, for thou art in sin—thou art in death. Oh! believe this; take it to thy soul; appropriate it, for it is most true that thou art dead, spiritually as well as legally.

The third kind of death is the consummation of the other two. It is eternal death. It is the execution of the legal sentence; it is the consummation of the spiritual death. Eternal death is the death of the soul; it takes place after the body has been laid in the grave, after the soul has departed from it. If legal death be terrible, it is because of its consequences; and if spiritual death be dreadful, it is because of that which shall succeed it. The two deaths of which we have spoken are the roots, and that death which is to come is the flower thereof. Oh! had I words that I might this morning attempt to depict to you what eternal death is. The soul has come before its Maker; the book has been opened; the sentence has been uttered; "Depart ye cursed" has shaken the universe, and made the very spheres dim with the frown of the Creator; the soul has departed to the depths where it is to dwell with others in eternal death. Oh! how horrible is its position now. Its bed is a bed of flame; the sights it sees are murdering ones that affright its spirit;. the sounds it hears are shrieks, and wails, and moans, and groans; all that its body knows is the infliction of miserable pain! It has the possession of unutterable woe, of unmitigated misery. The soul looks up. Hope is extinct—it is gone. It looks downward in dread and fear; remorse hath possessed its soul. It looks on the right hand—and the adamantine walls of fate keep it within its limits of torture. It looks on the left—and there the rampart of blazing fire forbids the scaling ladder of e'en a dreamy speculation of escape. It looks within and seeks for consolation there, but a gnawing worm hath entered into the soul. It looks about it—it has no friends to aid, no comforters, but tormentors in abundance. It knoweth nought of hope of deliverance; it hath heard the everlasting key of destiny turning in its awful wards, and it hath seen God take that key and hurl it down into the depth of eternity never to be found again. It hopeth not; it knoweth no escape; it guesseth not of deliverance; it pants for death, but death is too much its foe to be there; it longs that non-existence would swallow it up, but this eternal death is worse than annihilation. It pants for extermination as the laborer for his Sabbath; it longs that it might be swallowed up in nothingness just as would the galley slave long for freedom, but it cometh not—it is eternally dead. When eternity shall have rolled round multitudes of its everlasting cycles it shall still be dead. Forever knoweth no end; eternity cannot be spelled except in eternity. Still the soul seeth written o'er its head, "Thou art damned forever." It heareth howlings that are to be perpetual; it seeth flames which are unquenchable; it knoweth pains that are unmitigated; it hears a sentence that rolls not like the thunder of earth which soon is hushed—but onward, onward, onward, shaking the echoes of eternity—making thousands of years shake again with the horrid thunder of its dreadful sound—"Depart! depart! depart! ye cursed!" This is the eternal death.

II. Secondly, IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE,

for he says: "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ. We will show you there are three kinds of life in Christ, as there are three kinds of death.

First there is legal life in Christ. Just as every man by nature considered in Adam had a sentence of condemnation passed on him in the moment of Adam's sin, and more especially in the moment of his own first transgression, so I, if I be a believer, and you, if you trust in Christ, have had a legal sentence of acquittal passed on us through what Jesus Christ has done. O condemned sinner! Thou mayest be sitting this morning condemned like the prisoner in Newgate; but ere this day has passed away thou mayest be as clear from guilt as the angels above. There is such a thing as legal life in Christ, and, blessed be God! some of us enjoy it. We know our sins are pardoned because Christ suffered punishment for them; we know that we never can be punished ourselves, for Christ suffered in our stead. The Passover is slain for us; the lintel and door-post have been sprinkled, and the destroying angel can never touch us. For us there is no hell, although it blaze with terrible flame. Let Tophet be prepared of old, let its pile be wood and much smoke, we never can come there—Christ died for us, in our stead. What if there be racks of horrid torture? What if there be a sentence producing most horrible reverberations of thundering sounds? Yet neither rack, nor dungeon, nor thunder, are for us! In Christ Jesus we are now delivered. "There is therefore NOW no condemnation unto us who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Sinner! Art thou legally condemned this morning? Dost thou feel that? Then, let me tell thee that faith in Christ will give thee a knowledge of thy legal acquittal. Beloved, it is no fancy that we are condemned for our sins, it is a reality. So, it is no fancy we are acquitted, it is a reality. A man about to be hanged, if he received a full pardon would feel it a great reality. He would say, "I have a full pardon; I cannot be touched now." That is just how I feel.

"Now freed from sin I walk at large, The Saviour's blood's my full discharge, At his dear feet content I lay, A sinner saved, and homage pay."

Brethren, we have gained legal life in Christ, and such legal life that we cannot lose it. The sentence has gone against us once—now it has gone out for us. It is written, "THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION," and that now will do as well for me in fifty years as it does now. Whatever time we live it will still be written, "There is therefore, now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

Then, secondly, there is spiritual life in Christ Jesus. As the man is spiritually dead, God has spiritual life for him, for there is not a need which is not supplied by Jesus, there is not an emptiness in the heart which Christ cannot fill; there is not a desolation which he cannot people, there is not a desert which he cannot make to blossom as the rose. O ye dead sinners! spiritually dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, for we have seen—yes! these eyes have seen—the dead live again; we have known the man whose soul was utterly corrupt, by the power of God seek after righteousness; we have known the man whose views were carnal, whose lusts were mighty, whose passions were strong, suddenly, by irresistible might from heaven, consecrate himself to Christ, and become a child of Jesus. We know that there is life in Christ Jesus, of a spiritual order; yea, more, we ourselves, in our own persons, have felt that there is spiritual life. Well can we remember when we sat in the house of prayer, as dead as the very seat on which we sat. We had listened for a long, long while to the sound of the gospel, but no effect followed, when suddenly, as if our ears had been opened by the fingers of some mighty angel, a sound entered into our heart. We thought we heard Jesus saying, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." An irresistible hand put itself on our heart and crushed a prayer out of it. We never had a prayer before like that. We cried, "O God! have mercy upon me a sinner." Some of us for months felt a hand pressing us as if we had been grasped in a vice, and our souls bled drops of anguish. That misery was a sign of coming life. Persons when they are being drowned do not feel the pain so much as while they are being restored. Oh! we recollect those pains, those groans, that living strife that our soul had when it came to Christ. Ah! we can recollect the giving of our spiritual life as easily as could a man his restoration from the grave. We can suppose Lazarus to have remembered his resurrection, though not all the circumstances of it. So we, although we have forgotten a great deal, do recollect our giving ourselves to Christ. We can say to every sinner, however dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, though you may be rotten and corrupt in your grave. He who hath raised Lazarus hath raised us; and he can say, even to you,

"Lazarus! come forth."

In the third place, there is eternal life in Christ Jesus. And, oh! if eternal death be terrible, eternal life is blessed; for he has said, "Where I am there shall my people be." "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given unto me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory." "I give unto my sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish." Now, any Arminian that would preach from that text must buy a pair of India rubber lips, for I am sure he would need to stretch his mouth amazingly; he would never be able to speak the whole truth without winding about in a most mysterious manner. Eternal life—not a life which they are to lose, but eternal life. If I lost life in Adam I gained it in Christ; if I lost myself for ever I find myself for ever in Jesus Christ. Eternal life! Oh blessed thought! Our eyes will sparkle with joy and our souls bum with ecstasy in the thought that we have eternal life. Be quenched ye stars! let God put his finger on you—but my soul will live in bliss and joy. Put out thine eye O sun!—but mine eye shall "see the king in his beauty" when thine eye shall no more make the green earth laugh. And moon, be thou turned into blood!—but my blood shall ne'er be turned to nothingness; this spirit shall exist when thou hast ceased to be. And thou great world! thou mayest all subside, just as a moment's foam subsides upon the wave that bears it—but I have eternal life. O time! thou mayest see giant mountains dead and hidden in their graves; thou mayest see the stars like figs too ripe, falling from the tree, but thou shalt never, never see my spirit dead.

III. This brings us to the third point: that ETERNAL LIFE IS GIVEN TO ALL WHO COME FOR IT.

There never was a man who came to Christ for eternal life, for legal life, for spiritual life, who had not already received it, in some sense, and it was manifested to him that he had received it soon after he came. Let us take one or two texts—"He is able to save to the uttermost them that come unto him." Every man who comes to Christ will find that Christ is able to save him—not able to save him a little, to deliver him from a little sin, to keep him from a little trial, to carry him a little way and then drop him—but able to save him to the uttermost extent of his sin, unto the uttermost length of his trials, the uttermost depths of his sorrows, unto the uttermost duration of his existence. Christ says to every one who comes to him, "Come, poor sinner, thou needst not ask whether I have power to save. I will not ask thee how far thou hast gone into sin; I am able to save thee to the uttermost." And there is no one on earth can go beyond God's "uttermost."

Now another text: "Him that cometh to me, [mark the promises are nearly always to the coming ones] I will in no wise cast out." Every man that comes shall find the door of Christ's house opened—and the door of his heart too. Every man that comes—I say it in the broadest sense—shall find that Christ has mercy for him. The greatest absurdity in the world is to want to have a wider gospel than that recorded in Scripture. I preach that every man who believes shall be saved—that every man who comes shall find mercy. People ask me, "But suppose a man should come who was not chosen, would he be saved?" You go and suppose nonsense and I am not going to give you an answer. If a man is not chosen he will never come. When he does come it is a sure proof that he was chosen. Says one, "Suppose any one should go to Christ who had not been called of the Spirit." Stop, my brother, that is a supposition thou hast no right to make, for such a thing cannot happen; you only say it to entangle me, and you will not do that just yet. I say every man who comes to Christ shall be saved. I can say that as a Calvinist, or as a hyper-Calvinist, as plainly as you can say it. I have no narrower gospel than you have; only my gospel is on a solid foundation, whereas yours is built upon nothing but sand and rottenness. "Every man that cometh shall be saved, for no man cometh to me except the Father draw him." "But," says one, "suppose all the world should come, would Christ receive them?" Certainly, if all came; but then they won't come. I tell you all that come—aye, if they were as bad as devils, Christ would receive them; if they had all sin and filthiness running into their hearts as into a common sewer for the whole world, Christ would receive them. Another says, "I want to know about the rest of the people. May I go out and tell them—Jesus Christ died for every one of you? May I say—there is righteousness for everyone of you, there is life for every one of you?" No; you may not. You may say—there is life for every man that comes. But if you say there is life for one of those that do not believe, you utter a dangerous lie. If you tell them Jesus Christ was punished for their sins, and yet they will be lost, you tell a wilful falsehood. To think that God could punish Christ and then punish them—I wonder at your daring to have the impudence to say so! A good man was once preaching that there were harps and crowns in heaven for all his congregation; and then he wound up in a most solemn manner: "My dear friends, there are many for whom these things are prepared who will not get there." In fact, he made such a pitiful tale, as indeed he might do; but I tell you who he ought to have wept for—he ought to have wept for the angels of heaven and all the saints, because that would spoil heaven thoroughly. You know when you meet at Christmas, if you have lost your brother David and his seat is empty, you say: "Well, we always enjoyed Christmas, but there is a drawback to it now—poor David is dead and buried!" Think of the angels saying: "Ah! this is a beautiful heaven, but we don't like to see all those crowns up there with cobwebs on; we cannot endure that uninhabited street: we cannot behold yon empty thrones." And then, poor souls, they might begin talking to one another, and say, "we are none of us safe here for the promise was—"I give unto my sheep eternal life," and there is a lot of them in hell that God gave eternal life to; there is a number that Christ shed his blood for burning in the pit, and if they may be sent there, so may we. If we cannot trust one promise we cannot another." So heaven would lose its foundation, and fall. Away with your nonsensical gospel! God gives us a safe and solid one, built on covenant doings and covenant relationship, on eternal purposes and sure fulfillments.

IV. This brings us to the fourth point, THAT BY NATURE NO MAN WILL COME TO CHRIST,

for the text says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." I assert on Scripture authority from my text, that ye will not come unto Christ, that ye might have life. I tell you, I might preach to you for ever, I might borrow the eloquence of Demosthenes or of Cicero, but ye will not come unto Christ. I might beg of you on my knees, with tears in my eyes, and show you the horrors of hell and the joys of heaven, the sufficiency of Christ, and your own lost condition, but you would none of you come unto Christ of yourselves unless the Spirit that rested on Christ should draw you. It is true of all men in their natural condition that they will not come unto Christ. But, methinks I hear another of these babblers asking a question: "But could they not come if they liked?" My friend, I will reply to thee another time. That is not the question this morning. I am talking about whether they will, not whether they can.

You will notice whenever you talk about free-will, the poor Arminian, in two seconds begins to talk about power, and he mixes up two subjects that should be kept apart. We will not take two subjects at once; we decline fighting two at the same time, if you please. Another day we will preach from this text—"No man can come except the Father draw him." But it is only the will we are talking of now; and it is certain that men will not come unto Christ, that they might have life. We might prove this from many texts of Scripture, but we will take one parable. You remember the parable where a certain king had a feast for his son, and bade a great number to come; the oxen and fatlings were killed, and he sent his messengers bidding many to the supper. Did they go to the feast? Ah, no; but they all, with one accord, began to make excuse. One said he had married a wife, and therefore he could not come, whereas he might have brought her with him. Another had bought a yoke of oxen, and went to prove them; but the feast was in the night-time, and he could not prove his oxen in the dark. Another had bought a piece of land, and wanted to see it; but I should not think he went to see it with a lantern. So they all made excuses and would not come. Well the king was determined to have the feast; so he said, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and" invite them—stop! not invite—"compel them to come in;" for even the ragged fellows in the hedges would never have come unless they were compelled. Take another parable:—A certain man had a vineyard; at the appointed season he sent one of his servants for his rent. What did they do to him? They beat that servant. He sent another; and they stoned him. He sent another and they killed him. And, at last, he said, "I will send them my son, they will reverence him." But what did they do? They said, "This is the heir, let us kill him, and cast him out of the vineyard." So they did. It is the same with all men by nature. The Son of God came, yet men rejected him. "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." It would take too much time to mention any more Scripture proofs. We will, however, refer to the great doctrine of the fall. Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the fall. As I sometimes tell you, few preachers of religion do believe thoroughly the doctrine of the fall, or else they think that when Adam fell down he broke his little finger, and did not break his neck and ruin his race. Why, beloved, the fall broke man up entirely. It did not leave one power unimpaired; they were all shattered, and debased, and tarnished; like some mighty temple, the pillars might be there, the shaft, and the column, and the pilaster might be there; but they were all broken, though some of them retain their form and position. The conscience of man sometimes retains much of its tenderness—still it has fallen. The will, too, is not exempt. What though it is "the Lord Mayor of Mansoul," as Bunyan calls it?—the Lord Mayor goes wrong. The Lord Will-be-will was continually doing wrong. Your fallen nature was put out of order; your will, amongst other things, has clean gone astray from God. But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer—for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind.

An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying, "Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them." That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah! when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out; they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, "I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?" If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, "My dear sir, I quite believe it—and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit, and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity." Do I hear one Christian man saying, "I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me"? No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts and say—

"Grace taught my soul to pray, And made my eyes to o'erflow; 'Twas grace that kept me to this day, And will not let me go."

Is there one here—a solitary one—man or woman, young or old, who can say, "I sought God before he sought me?" No; even you who are a little Arminian, will sing—

"O yes! I do love Jesus— Because he first loved me."

Then, one more question. Do we not find, even after we have come to Christ, our soul is not free, but is kept by Christ? Do we not find times, even now, when to will is not present with us? There is a law in our members, warring against the law of our minds. Now, if those who are spiritually alive feel that their will is contrary to God, what shall we say of the man who is "dead in trespasses and sins"? It would be a marvelous absurdity to put the two on a level; and it would be still more absurd to put the dead before the living. No; the text is true, experience has branded it into our hearts. "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

Now, we must tell you the reasons why men will not come unto Christ. The first is, because no man by nature thinks he wants Christ. By nature man conceives that he does not need Christ; he thinks that he has a robe of righteousness of his own, that he is well-dressed, that he is not naked, that he needs not Christ's blood to wash him, that he is not black or crimson, and needs no grace to purify him. No man knows his need until God shows it to him; and until the Holy Spirit reveals the necessity of pardon, no man will seek pardon. I may preach Christ for ever, but unless you feel you want Christ you will never come to him. A doctor may have a good shop, but nobody will buy his medicines until he feels he wants them.

The next reason is, because men do not like Christ's way of saving them. One says, "I do not like it because he makes me holy; I cannot drink or swear if he saved me." Another says, "It requires me to be so precise and puritanical, and I like a little more license." Another does not like it because it is so humbling; he does not like it because the "gate of heaven" is not quite high enough for his head, and he does not like stooping. That is the chief reason ye will not come to Christ, because ye cannot get to him with your heads straight up in the air; for Christ makes you stoop when you come. Another does not like it to be grace from first to last. "Oh!" he says, "If I might have a little honor." But when he hears it is all Christ or no Christ, a whole Christ or no Christ, he says, "I shall not come," and turns on his heel and goes away. Ah! proud sinners, ye will not come unto Christ. Ah! ignorant sinners, ye will not come unto Christ, because ye know nothing of him. And that is the third reason.

Men do not know his worth, for if they did they would come unto him. Why did not sailors go to America before Columbus went? Because they did not believe there was an America. Columbus had faith, therefore he went. He who hath faith in Christ goes to him. But you don't know Jesus; many of you never saw his beauteous face; you never saw how applicable his blood is to a sinner, how great is his atonement; and how all-sufficient are his merits. Therefore, "ye will not come to him."

And oh! my hearers, my last thought is a solemn one. I have preached that ye will not come. But some will say, "it is their sin that they do not come." IT IS SO. You will not come, but then your will is a sinful will. Some think that we "sew pillows to all armholes" when we preach this doctrine, but we don't. We do not set this down as being part of man's original nature, but as belonging to his fallen nature. It is sin that has brought you into this condition that you will not come. If you had not fallen, you would come to Christ the moment he was preached to you; but you do not come because of your sinfulness and crime. People excuse themselves because they have bad hearts. That is the most flimsy excuse in the world. Do not robbery and thieving come from a bad heart? Suppose a thief should say to a judge, "I could not help it, I had a bad heart." What would the judge say? "You rascal! why, if your heart is bad, I'll make the sentence heavier, for you are a villain indeed. Your excuse is nothing." The Almighty shall "laugh at them, and shall have them in derision." We do not preach this doctrine to excuse you, but to humble you. The possession of a bad nature is my fault as well as my terrible calamity. It is a sin that will always be charged on men; when they will not come unto Christ it is sin that keeps them away. He who does not preach that, I fear is not faithful to God and his conscience. Go home, then, with this thought; "I am by nature so perverse that I will not come unto Christ, and that wicked perversity of my nature is my sin. I deserve to be sent to hell for it." And if the thought does not humble you, the Spirit using it, no other can. This morning I have not preached human nature up, but I have preached it down. God humble us all. Amen.


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Theology
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To: OneVike

“Calvinism is but an extension of the pagan teachings Augustine brought into the church.”


It’s absurd to turn to something other than scripture to defend one’s theological views, as it is the scripture which is the end all and the be all for all doctrine. However, it cannot be reasonably concluded that the early Christian Saints, as you called them, didn’t believe in predestination or held to your views of Free-Will. Quoting one or two people, one of which left to the Montanists, cannot make this the universal position of Christianity. Until Pelagius, who denied Original Sin and affirmed things as you do, there was no real need to defend it, and therefore no real need to guard against it. But by your logic we would also have to throw out the Trinity, since no one discussed it, though it is clearly in the scripture upon analysis. One can find in the works of Tertullian, or many others, favorable quotations that can be applied to both positions. And, certainly, these same people you quote held many errors, which we cannot attribute to having been carried on to them from the Apostles. Some of these early Christians were better than others, though, for example, Ignatius certainly did not speak like a Pelagian!

Ignatius of Antioch (1st Century)

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 0)

“Seeing, then, all things have an end, these two things are simultaneously set before us— death and life; and every one shall go unto his own place. For as there are two kinds of coins, the one of God, the other of the world, and each of these has its special character stamped upon it, [so is it also here.] The unbelieving are of this world; but the believing have, in love, the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, Ch. 5)

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans. Ch. 0)

“I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Ch. 4)

“Flee, therefore, those evil offshoots [of Satan], which produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies. For these men are not the planting of the Father. For if they were, they would appear as branches of the cross, and their fruit would be incorruptible.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, Ch. 11)

And just an FYI, the “pagan” Augustine was originally of your mind, though he changed it later.

“Chapter 7 [III.]— Augustine Confesses that He Had Formerly Been in Error Concerning the Grace of God.

“It was not thus that that pious and humble teacher thought— I speak of the most blessed Cyprian— when he said that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own. And in order to show this, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, For what have you that you have not received? And if you have received it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 1 Corinthians 4:7 And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe in God is not God’s gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world. For I did not think that faith was preceded by God’s grace, so that by its means would be given to us what we might profitably ask, except that we could not believe if the proclamation of the truth did not precede; but that we should consent when the gospel was preached to us I thought was our own doing, and came to us from ourselves. And this my error is sufficiently indicated in some small works of mine written before my episcopate.”

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15121.htm

So, if Augustine is a Pagan and comes up with Pagan ideas, were his original ideas less Pagan than his later opinions?

“Pagan concepts such as original sin, biblical predestination and election.”


We’ve gone over predestination, which beyond your appealing to non-biblical sources to refute, and your assertions that they are refuted, stand generally unmolested. But on original sin, how can you deny this when the scripture tells us that we are by nature the children of wrath, who served the desires of the flesh and of the mind?

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

“To embrace original sin you, must negate man’s free will and their ability to obey God on their own.”


If it is “on their own,” without even the aid of grace to open up their hearts, your views aren’t even Arminian, but totally Pelagian!


21 posted on 06/26/2013 1:27:39 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Just mythoughts

“Their souls/spirits existed before they were placed in flesh body at conception.”


I would be careful with this kind of conclusion, dear Brother, as it is essentially the Mormon position. It is not necessary to suppose that Jacob and Esau existed as spirits before they were placed on Earth just because the election of God took place before they had done “good or evil.” To take your position, it would suggest that Jacob must have done something right in the pre-existence, which warranted God having chosen him. But the scripture teaches that it is not based on our merits at all, and therefore this cannot be the case:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

We are also, by nature, designed to be alive as a union between a physical body and a soul. To be separate from the body originally, before being placed into the body, would say that our natural condition is to be what we call death. Yet, as we see in Revelation, our ultimate fate is to be a part of the 1st resurrection, regaining our physical bodies, though in a glorified state incapable of sinning, in the same way we are incapable to stop sinning right now.


22 posted on 06/26/2013 1:37:41 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: OneVike

“As for my disdain for Calvin’s teachings, I will reserve any more comment on the man personally for God himself. For when a man’s teachings lead millions astray from the truth, it is God he must eventually answer to. By now I am sure he has.”


One last thing. If Calvin led “millions astray from the truth,” then the entire Reformation was a “leading astray” of millions from the “truth” of Catholicism, as it was Luther, the Augustinian monk, who declared the bondage of the will and waged war against man’s Free-Will. And his legacy was carried on by all the reformers thereafter. If what you say is true, then it is the Roman Catholic view which is the truth, as it is they who always championed the freedom of the will. After all, the doctrines of grace utterly abolish Catholicism and its rites.

I’m sure the Catholics would be happy with your assertions, but I’m willing to bet that you wouldn’t.


23 posted on 06/26/2013 1:44:40 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: OneVike
Consider how God knew what Saul/Paul would do. There was a record of Paul in that heaven/earth world/age that was, that Peter describes in IIPeter 3. Something that never existed cannot be predestined before the ‘foundation of the world’. That is those who were ‘perfect’ in their love for God and were not tempted to follow the first rebel. Their ‘will’ has already been destined, as was Paul's. Paul ought to know given what he was doing in his free will. Paul wrote all about those predestined from before the foundation of the world.
24 posted on 06/26/2013 4:31:00 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
When did the devil rebel? I do not know enough about what the Mormons claim to discuss their beliefs. The devil has already been judged and he is the only entity that has been named to be destroyed from within.

Peter, (I do not know about the Mormons), says there are three different heaven/earth worlds/ages. IIPeter 3. And Peter writes that the heaven/earth world/age that WAS this earth was destroyed by water... check out what Genesis 1:2 says, why there is a flood described in that verse.

Yet not one WORD through the whole of the Bible is the creation/formation of each and every soul/spirit intellect described. But when the Adam was formed he was not alive until the breath of life which means soul was breathed into his nostrils.

Christ said that the first requirement to see the kingdom of God is to be born from above. There is no such thing as predestination of something that did not already exist. This flesh body is temporal and when it returns to the dust from which it came the soul/spirit intellect returns to the Maker that sent it.

Paul says at the last trump, the 7th trump all will be changed. This flesh age has a time stamp on it and once the last soul/spirit willing to take this flesh journey is conceived then will come the time for that harvest by Christ.

It is God's plan placed in motion when the devil rebelled and drew a third of God children to him. God not did just hate Esau without cause, and God had Paul write Esau was hated before he was ever born. So how did Esau live his flesh journey? Obviously the same pattern he set in that age that WAS.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; ...... Obviously God knew his souls at least the majority would be born of woman through this flesh age, yet God does not reference flesh bodies, He says souls. There is a difference in the two bodies and when Christ returns all flesh will be changed.

25 posted on 06/26/2013 4:51:40 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; P-Marlowe; HarleyD
To some degree you are correct that logic would not be the basis of the teaching. It would be scripture. It would be a good faith effort on the part of a believer to account for all scripture and not just some scripture or even most scripture.

First, we must deal with scripture such as "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We must deal with the extent of the atonement, "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." "For God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Next, a biblical position must deal with "by grace we're saved through faith, and that not of ourselves. It (faith) is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." It must deal with Lydia for "God opened her heart" to believe. And as you have pointed out, scripture says that Jacob was elected before birth and Esau was not.

So, a biblical position must deal with both God's sovereign choice and God's making faith available to all. It must not make God into some kind of lawyer who withholds things via the fine print, and it must not make God into some kind of punching bag who reels about not knowing what's going on.

Revelation 22: "17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. "

Revelation 17: "The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished "

Romans 10: 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

26 posted on 06/26/2013 5:34:18 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; OneVike
To some degree you are correct that logic would not be the basis of the teaching. It would be scripture. It would be a good faith effort on the part of a believer to account for all scripture and not just some scripture or even most scripture.

First, we must deal with scripture such as "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We must deal with the extent of the atonement, "not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." "For God loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Next, a biblical position must deal with "by grace we're saved through faith, and that not of ourselves. It (faith) is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." It must deal with Lydia for "God opened her heart" to believe. And as you have pointed out, scripture says that Jacob was elected before birth and Esau was not.

So, a biblical position must deal with both God's sovereign choice and God's making faith available to all. It must not make God into some kind of lawyer who withholds things via the fine print, and it must not make God into some kind of punching bag who reels about not knowing what's going on.

Revelation 22: "17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. "

Revelation 17: "The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished "

Romans 10: 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

27 posted on 06/26/2013 5:36:49 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: OneVike

I asked four questions. You didn’t answer any of them.


28 posted on 06/26/2013 5:56:13 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: P-Marlowe

I was not ignoring your questions on purpose. I was called to do other things. I was prepared to answer them after my other responses.

As of now, I am busy at work. Hopefully I will get to them this evening after I return from church.


29 posted on 06/26/2013 9:31:33 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: xzins

“We must deal with the extent of the atonement, “not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”


1Jn 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This scripture is a word of encouragement to believers that they have an advocate for them to the Father, who can do so since He is the righteous “propitiation” for the sins of believers, the one who washes away their sin with His blood.

If we read this as you do, we would understand the “us” and the “world” as referring to every individual, which means that even the reprobate have had their sins “atoned,” or “propitiated” per the scripture, even though they will die not only for the sin of unbelief, but for all their other sins too, even though Christ presumably atoned for all their sins on the cross, for he “IS’ the propitiation, and not just possibly a propitiation or available to be a propitiation. Unless Christ “is” the propitiation for the believers (”us”), then this passage of scripture is no encouragement, but rather something terrifying to behold, since even with Christ the High Priest atoning with His death and advocating to the Father on the behalf of the world, many He died for and advocated for are still finding themselves in hell.

This is why Spurgeon, in this sermon, makes the correction that we can say that atonement applies only to “the comers,” but not to all of humanity, which your reading directly leads to. If not, then we must believe in an atonement and an advocacy that is not effectual, or does not wash away every sin.

Notice that this scripture begins with “my little children,” or more specifically, to the Jewish converts to Christianity. The epistle itself begins by speaking to those who had “seen” and heard and “touched” for themselves the “Word of Life,” which can only mean Jesus Christ Himself as opposed to merely the Gospel message. We can conclude from this that the audience is Jewish. To further prove the point, John is also called an Apostle to the Jews in Galatians 2:9, making it ever more likely that we must understand this epistle in the Jewish context.

Gill observes that the Jews commonly referred to the Gentiles as “the world”:

“Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles “the world”; and “the whole world”; and “the nations of the world” (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word “world” is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that “there is no propitiation for them” (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n), “it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’ which could only design the people in the temple.”

So the “world” then is in reference to the Gentiles in a limited sense, specifically for all the children of God dispersed across the world, and not individually to every human being, whether they are reprobate or elect, which could make Christ the propitiation of the unrepentant and the damned in hell, all of whom would probably be surprised to hear that Christ paid the penalty for the sins they are burning for.

This is the same point (that John is speaking only of the elect across the world) that John makes in the 11th chapter of his Gospel:

Joh_11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Notice how close the language is as well. In 1 John 2:2, “not for ours only,” and in John 11:52 “and not for that nation only.” John, therefore, is speaking to the children of God “my little children,” and of these same children ‘scattered abroad,” refuting the Jewish idea that the Messiah came only for the Jews.

Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

To beat the point home totally, here Christ prays to those “given to Him” (the body of Christ) out of the world, and not every individual in the world:

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If Christ is the advocate of the entire world, there should be no distinction between those “given” and “the world” in its totality.

This same reply can also be applied to your other verse where the word “world” appears, understood in a general sense to save men from every tongue and nation, but not that He offers universal atonement even to those outside of Christianity.

“First, we must deal with scripture such as “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


If you read the sermon, the fact that “whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” is not something even Spurgeon denies, even when he condemns the idea of free-will. The elect believe it, and the reprobate reject it unto their condemnation. Why God does not make all the reprobate into the elect is His prerogative:

Rom 9:18-21 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

While it is impossible for mankind to “seek after God” or understand God (per Romans 3) without the quickening of the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that those who reject Christ’s offer are not guilty for it. Examine this explanation of the will by Calvin:

Important Distinctions to Understand:
The Choices of Man - Voluntary or Coerced by John Calvin

“There are four expressions regarding the will which differ from one another “namely that the will is 1) free, 2) bound, 3) self-determined, or 4) coerced. People generally understand a free will to be one which has in its power to choose good or evil …[But] There can be no such thing as a coerced will, since the two ideas are contradictory. But our responsibility as teachers is to say what it means, so that it may be understood what coercion is. Therefore we describe [as coerced] the will which does not incline this way or that of its own accord or by an internal movement of decision, but is forcibly driven by an external impulse. We say that it is self-determined when of itself it directs itself in the direction in which it is led, when it is not taken by force or dragged unwillingly. A bound will, finally, is one which because of its corruptness is held captive under the authority of its evil desires, so that it can choose nothing but evil, even if it does so of its own accord and gladly, without being driven by any external impulse.

“According to these definitions we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man’s innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.” (John Calvin, BLW pp 69, 70)

You might ask, why does Christ give a general call to all, when salvation is only secured for some? Even though election takes place in eternity, election is only the plan of God to achieve something that will occur in time. He has ordained that the elect should come to Him according to means, such as the preaching of the Word of God, through enlightenment by the Holy Spirit; and these men grow throughout their life by the sanctification of the heart and mind by the Holy Spirit in study of the scriptures. It is, in a way, a cooperation between God and man, but not in the sense that any of the elect can ever fall away if they fail to cooperate:

Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Or that they came to Christ of their own flesh and blood:

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

But rather in the sense that our Father wants us to know and understand the necessity for our election, the glory of His mercy, and the value of the gift He has given to us, though we deserved it not. The reprobate, also, are lessons for us, to show us our wretched nature, and as an illustrated lesson of the horrors of sin and the justice of God in punishing that sin.

Rom 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

“So, a biblical position must deal with both God’s sovereign choice and God’s making faith available to all.”


But you asserted that faith is itself the gift of God “not of ourselves,” in your quotation from Ephesians. So if faith is given to all, why do not all believe? And why is it that the Jews in John 6 are not said to have been given the gift of faith, but were rather not given it by God at all to begin with?

” It would be a good faith effort on the part of a believer to account for all scripture and not just some scripture or even most scripture.”


It is not enough merely to quote random scriptures and then tell us that you are “accounting for them all” in good faith. To account for them is to do as I have done, which is to explain how the scripture does not actually contradict itself, but gives one coherent message. Your responses do not “account for the scripture,” it merely asserts that they contradict each other, and that you do not know how they fit together.


30 posted on 06/26/2013 6:06:11 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
It is a good exercise for me to disagree with Spurgeon now and again, although so much of what he wrote is such a blessing.

And with others.

If we read this as you do, we would understand the “us” and the “world” as referring to every individual, which means that even the reprobate have had their sins “atoned,” or “propitiated” per the scripture, even though they will die not only for the sin of unbelief, but for all their other sins too, even though Christ presumably atoned for all their sins on the cross, for he “IS’ the propitiation, and not just possibly a propitiation or available to be a propitiation. Unless Christ “is” the propitiation for the believers (”us”), then this passage of scripture is no encouragement, but rather something terrifying to behold, since even with Christ the High Priest atoning with His death and advocating to the Father on the behalf of the world, many He died for and advocated for are still finding themselves in hell.

Are you among those who believe Christ was of insufficient value for his death to be a sufficient atonement for all sin?

31 posted on 06/26/2013 6:26:32 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

“Are you among those who believe Christ was of insufficient value for his death to be a sufficient atonement for all sin?”


Christ’s sacrifice is of infinite value to wash the sins of the entire world. When Christ does not give this washing to the reprobate, it does not imply a lack of power to do so. It is His sovereign right not to wash away the sins of the reprobate, but only those given to Him from out of the world.


32 posted on 06/26/2013 6:37:58 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Christ’s sacrifice is of infinite value to wash the sins of the entire world.

John 1:29 - "29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

33 posted on 06/26/2013 7:08:06 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

“John 1:29 - “29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!””


And what is it you are trying to prove? That the sin of the reprobate, including the sin of unbelief, is taken away? Is there no definite recipient of atonement?


34 posted on 06/26/2013 7:11:34 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: OneVike

I’ve become convinced of a “Calminian” God. Free will entry; guaranteed salvation. And how God implements this, which is a paradox but not any kind of self contradiction, is one of His secrets.


35 posted on 06/26/2013 7:17:38 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; OneVike

**The Spirit blows “where He listeth,” according to His own will, and not the will of man.**

But what saith Jesus Christ?........”..how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him.” Luke 11:13

**Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.**

As a former Calvinist (my first 28 yrs in a very conservative, studious Presbyterian congregation), I was taught there was NO tongues anymore, NO remarkable sound coming from an uncertain location. It’s a real eyebrow raiser to hear a family member suddenly speak a language you KNOW they had not previously known. In my first witness to such a scene was one of “What? Where do that come from? She’s never done that before!”. The Lord said there would be a SOUND, and He said that that would be the case for EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.

Many that pull John 3:16 up for salvation (which IS a wonderful verse), fail to notice that the Lord had just explained in verses 3-8 the proof of believing on Him (if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his).

Thou art a leader among Calvinists, and knowest not these things? (sorry....couldn’t resist)


36 posted on 06/26/2013 7:20:13 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Humans are spiritual beings and thereby possess capabilities that the time and space bound universe we see, composed of matter and energy, doesn’t. Things that are true of a rock or a tree are not true of a soul.


37 posted on 06/26/2013 7:21:38 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
That the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world was of infinite worth.

Exodus 30: 6 Put the altar in front of the curtain that is before the ark of the Testimony--before the atonement cover that is over the Testimony--where I will meet with you. 7 "Aaron must burn fragrant incense on the altar every morning when he tends the lamps. 8 He must burn incense again when he lights the lamps at twilight so incense will burn regularly before the LORD for the generations to come. 9 Do not offer on this altar any other incense or any burnt offering or grain offering, and do not pour a drink offering on it. 10 Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the LORD."

That atonement was for the entire nation, however, it was effective only for the faithful.

Jeremiah 7: 21 " 'This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.' 27 "When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28 Therefore say to them, 'This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips. 29 Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.

38 posted on 06/26/2013 7:27:41 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Zuriel

“But what saith Jesus Christ?........”..how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK him.” Luke 11:13”


How does that contradict the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit? In these verses, Christ is encouraging, presumably, believers to ask freely of God whatsoever they want, including the blessings of the Holy Spirit. It does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not quicken you to believe in the first place, so that you should desire to be filled with the Spirit.

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

“The Lord said there would be a SOUND, and He said that that would be the case for EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.”


This sounds like something from one of the Charismatic groups, as they emphasize miraculous gifts. It seems to suggest that tongues is necessary to prove that one is saved. However, tongues is not a universal gift given in the scripture.

1Co 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

If a believer must make a “SOUND,” presumably of the “diversity of tongues” variety, then Paul wouldn’t ask “do all speak with tongues?” Since it is a given, speaking to Christians, that they would all do so, if what you say is true.

The real witness of the Holy Spirit within us is not tongue speak, but fruits that make us better persons.

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The purpose of salvation isn’t just so we can speak in tongues or sit around and rot. He ordains us to “bring forth fruit,” and “to be holy and without blame.” That is not to say that we can be perfect, but the true Christian covets perfection (at least, in spirit, if not in the members of his flesh that wars against him) and to do the will of God.

Gal 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (24) And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Jas_2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


39 posted on 06/26/2013 7:47:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: xzins

“That atonement was for the entire nation, however, it was effective only for the faithful.”


But that’s not actually what your verse says. If the atonement is for the whole nation, then the whole nation would be forgiven. The atonement, by definition, covers up their sins. Therefore the atonement can only be for the faithful, and not for the faithless.

Now that I think about it, I don’t think we even disagree. Your problem, though, is in confessing the origin of faith, by which one is justified by the atonement. Which you did confess, actually, but you want to maintain the idea that somehow, when God gave you the gift of faith, that in some way that gift was earned by something you did.


40 posted on 06/26/2013 7:52:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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