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Vaticanís number 2: Priest celibacy up for discussion
The Daily Caller ^ | September 12, 2013 | Caroline May

Posted on 09/14/2013 9:37:39 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

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To: Salvation; BigEdLB; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...
Pedophiles are homosexuals or someone the victim may already know such as a parent, uncle, cousin, coach, teacher, etc. — not priests.

So would it just be better to call those Catholic priests *homosexual serial rapists of children*?

That which we call a rose by any other name......

Is there no evil that a priest can commit that won't be condemned by Catholics?

Sheesh. If homosexual rape or molestation of children is not enough for someone to rise up and condemn them, then apparently nothing is.

It is beyond comprehension that those priests are not condemned by anyone. No wonder the Catholic church is still wrestling with the problem. The problem is never dealt with. You can't deal with what you won't admit exists.

51 posted on 09/15/2013 1:27:06 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: servantboy777
Scripture addresses men who have a difficult time controlling sexual urges. Say’s to marry.

God said it was not good for man to be alone. God performed the first marriage and blessed it and commanded Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.

IN the NT, Paul gave instructions for qualifications of men who are in leadership roles, that of deacon and elder and one was that they were married.

He also said that the mark of those following false doctrine was in abstaining from foods and forbidding to marry.

Marriage and ministry are not mutually exclusive.

52 posted on 09/15/2013 1:34:34 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom; CynicalBear; Salvation; annalex

The biggest strawman ever constructed is the RCC. And the “faithful” just keep stuffing it with more straw. One day God is going to rain fire down and *poof*, up it will go. Pomp and Circumstance and all.


53 posted on 09/15/2013 2:18:15 PM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: smvoice

The record of the Church in dealing with sex abuse by clergy is better than the public schools, sports teams at colleges, or Protestant institutions, it is just that because we are Catholics, the world hates us, as Christ told us it would.


54 posted on 09/15/2013 2:43:52 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: smvoice


55 posted on 09/15/2013 2:49:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: annalex; metmom; CynicalBear

annalex, are you purposely trying to miss the point? No one else on this earth pretends to be able to forgive or retain the sins of others. No one except RC priests. C’mon, you know that. THAT’S what makes the RCC cases so hideous. If you cannot see that, you are purposely trying NOT to.


56 posted on 09/15/2013 2:50:12 PM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: Salvation

Well, Sal, the first thing that came up when I went to the site you gave me was a big honkin’ picture of Our Lady of the Guadalupe, or whatever. Yeah, I’m gonna’ go there and get LOTS of truth...Is there nothing you post that doesn’t have a picture of our lady of something or other leading out? If you truly want non-catholics to explore your church’s teachings, I’ll give you a hint: we’re not into visions, apparitions or other “miracles” in the sky.


57 posted on 09/15/2013 2:56:52 PM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: smvoice

Did you scroll down the page?

You won’t get the truth in the lamestream media.


58 posted on 09/15/2013 3:06:10 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

No, I told you I didn’t get past the picture. A picture tells a thousand words, don’t you know. And I simply cannot abide these visions or drawings of what so and so probably looked like. Really.


59 posted on 09/15/2013 3:08:07 PM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: ansel12


60 posted on 09/15/2013 3:10:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: smvoice; annalex; metmom

I shudder every time I see them post comparisons to somehow lesson the blow to their beloved “church”. On the one hand they try to tell us it’s the “on holy church” then on the other hand compare to non religious organizations and institutions. Duplicity again.


61 posted on 09/15/2013 3:22:43 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

** lesson the blow **

LOL!

Is that the first lesson or the 100th lesson?


62 posted on 09/15/2013 3:29:10 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: CynicalBear; metmom; annalex

Maybe they think our attention span is so short we won’t remember what they’ve said before. Or the feigned ignorance they display. I pray to God it’s “feigned” and not real. I pray to God we could get a straight answer from them once in a while, too...


63 posted on 09/15/2013 3:31:38 PM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: Salvation

I simply don’t count any more. I just listen to God and realize He must have someone reading this stuff that needs it at the time. God only knows whether these preachers of “another gospel” will see the light but I’m thinking there are others who read these that He knows need it.


64 posted on 09/15/2013 3:47:26 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: smvoice

Talk to someone who works with ex cult members to find out how deeply ingrained the cult teachings become. Then think if God has given them over how impossible it is.


65 posted on 09/15/2013 3:49:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Salvation

It seems clear that you can’t post the quotes from the sources that can show us that fathers and Christian leaders are the “the most probable pedophiles”.

Posting links that don’t prove your claim doesn’t address anything, it only proves that you need to quit making it up.


66 posted on 09/15/2013 3:54:56 PM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet. Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: ansel12

The sources are in the links.


67 posted on 09/15/2013 3:59:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
The most probable pedophiles in order are:
Fathers and other male relatives
Teachers
Coaches
Protestant ministers

No they aren't Salvation, where are the statistics to give "fathers" your top billing as "pedophiles" and where are the statistics by jobs that lists Christian ministers as the third most likely profession in America for pedophiles?

Show me the proof for those two claims.

Do you have issues with fatherhood that make you want to spread that false claim on the internet?

68 posted on 09/15/2013 5:14:01 PM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet. Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: Neidermeyer

Okiedokie.


69 posted on 09/15/2013 5:15:25 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: ansel12

Lots of graphs and statistics that prove my point.

Remember I worked in the child care industry, so I am familiar with this since I underwent a lot of training in this area.

http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics/

http://www.a-team.org/child_abuse_statistics.html

http://www.rainn.org/statistics


70 posted on 09/15/2013 6:28:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Read post 68 again, you have to quit making false claims and then posting endless links that don’t prove them at all.

Where are the statistics to give “fathers” your top billing as “pedophiles” and where are the statistics by jobs that lists Christian ministers as the third most likely profession in America for pedophiles?

Show me the proof for those two claims.

Do you have issues with fatherhood that make you want to spread that false claim on the internet?


71 posted on 09/15/2013 6:36:56 PM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet. Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: Salvation; ansel12

You’re saying FATHERS and other male relatives are the most likely to abuse and yet from your link.......

http://www.a-team.org/child_abuse_statistics.html

“The safest family environment for a child is a home in which the biological parents are married. Contrary to current theory about the effects of marriage on children, recent research demonstrates that marriage provides a safe environment for all family members, one in which child abuse and fatality are lowered dramatically.”

I read your links and NOWHERE does it indicate that a child’s father is more likely to abuse. For that matter, there is no breakdown by category of father, uncle, cousin, step-brother, or whatever, so the claim is specious at best.

You’ll need to provide better statistics if you want to continue to slander fathers.


72 posted on 09/15/2013 6:55:41 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: annalex
The record of the Church in dealing with sex abuse by clergy is better than the public schools, sports teams at colleges, or Protestant institutions, it is just that because we are Catholics, the world hates us, as Christ told us it would.


73 posted on 09/15/2013 6:58:05 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: RitaOK
So well put, thanks:
"Self control, sacrifice and offering of the priesthood, by the priest, sets them apart in this world.

The Enemy is jealous of such men, wishing accordingly to devour them and bring division to the Church, wherever there is an opening."


74 posted on 09/15/2013 7:27:44 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Salvation

Hopefully there are still some who would look at the information in your links; I certainly appreciate them.

I think these threads now are almost - if not completely - devoid of non-Catholics who would look at facts objectively.

If one’s religion absolutely requires one to be anti-Catholic, there is little choice: any contrary facts must be avoided.

It’s an amalgam of religions defined by “Not Catholic.” Doesn’t matter much whatever else it teaches so long as its Not Catholic. Could be any manner of heresy, but as long as they’re Not Catholic..

Maybe half a dozen of ‘em left - or a dozen at most. Totally and obsessively defining themselves by what they are not.


75 posted on 09/15/2013 7:41:06 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: servantboy777

I said “especially acute.”

The Catholic Church’s record on sexual abuse is not markedly worse, and is markedly better, than many other institutions.


76 posted on 09/15/2013 7:44:53 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: D-fendr

:)


77 posted on 09/15/2013 8:12:23 PM PDT by RitaOK ( VIVA CHRISTO REY / Public education is the farm team for more Marxists coming.)
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To: D-fendr

Perhaps you can find in those irrelevant links the answer to post 68?

You seem to be saying that you did.


78 posted on 09/15/2013 8:36:37 PM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet... Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: ansel12

Does it really matter?


79 posted on 09/15/2013 9:40:50 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Does it matter?

Where are the statistics to give “fathers” your top billing as “pedophiles” and where are the statistics by jobs that lists Christian ministers as the third most likely profession in America for pedophiles?

Do you have issues with fatherhood that make you want to spread that false claim on the internet?

What is it about some here that has them want to tell lies about fatherhood?


80 posted on 09/15/2013 9:50:35 PM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet... Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: ansel12

Does it really matter what I find?

Is it really “lies about fatherhood” that sparks the rancor ?


81 posted on 09/15/2013 10:11:56 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

LOL, your mind seems to be wandering, I don’t think you have read my posts.

Where are the statistics to give “fathers” your top billing as “pedophiles” and where are the statistics by jobs that lists Christian ministers as the third most likely profession in America for pedophiles?

Do you have issues with fatherhood that make you want to spread that false claim on the internet?

You had given the impression that you found the proof of those claims in those links, it looks like you didn’t.

What a surprise.


82 posted on 09/15/2013 10:38:10 PM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet... Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: ansel12

No, I don’t think it matters what I find. Nor do I don’t think any “proofs” will satisfy you. I believe they would only further enflame.

They really don’t have anything to do with the underlying cause.


83 posted on 09/15/2013 10:42:55 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
No, I don’t think it matters what I find. Nor do I don’t think any “proofs” will satisfy you.

Rather than playing games and making excuses and personal attacks, why don't you just try it.

Where are the statistics to give “fathers” your top billing as “pedophiles” and where are the statistics by jobs that lists Christian ministers as the third most likely profession in America for pedophiles?

84 posted on 09/15/2013 10:57:16 PM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet... Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: ansel12

It should be obvious from my posts here - starting with the first one - that I see this debate as useless on the facts. I’ve been here long enough to see them all at least a dozen times.

I know they go around in circles if any where at all.

It’s really about being against the Church. For some that is the definition of their religion that is most important and that they can share with others, no matter how divergent they are otherwise.

So, it doesn’t matter what I find or what I share in terms of facts or statistics, because the real game is to oppose no matter what. It’s that important, it is how some define themselves on the deepest level of religion.

Nothing I offer you here can change this.

The most I could hope for is that you see it as it really is.


85 posted on 09/15/2013 11:51:43 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; moder_ator

What debate? Are you posting to the wrong person?

In post after post to me you keep doing a huge amount of mind reading and seeming to be posting to me about something else entirely than what I have posted on.

Read post 14, it is my first post on this thread, then in post 75 you responded to a post that had been made to me on that question and seemed to indicate that you saw my question answered in the links, but so far that doesn’t seem to be the case at all.

I’ll ask again.

Where are the statistics to give “fathers” your top billing as “pedophiles” and where are the statistics by jobs that lists Christian ministers as the third most likely profession in America for pedophiles?


86 posted on 09/16/2013 12:35:37 AM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet... Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: Salvation; annalex; metmom

One would think that Catholics would hold their priests to a higher standard than society in general.

Instezd I see posts that say “Hey! We’re not as bad as everyone else!”


87 posted on 09/16/2013 3:19:35 AM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: smvoice; metmom; CynicalBear
No one else on this earth pretends to be able to forgive or retain the sins of others

Validly ordained priests in any Catholic or Orthodox churches can and do forgive or retain sins of others.

As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:21-23)

88 posted on 09/16/2013 5:18:33 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Arthur McGowan
They hid the abuse for decades. Come on.

Not attempting to indict the catholic church on this thread, but to even remotely defend the catholic church in regards to it's record regarding sexual abuse of children is absurd.

89 posted on 09/16/2013 5:46:18 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: Gamecock; Salvation; metmom
I see posts that say “Hey! We’re not as bad as everyone else!”

It is precisely because we "hold their priests to a higher standard" that we are better than everyone else.

90 posted on 09/16/2013 5:56:57 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex; metmom
It is precisely because we "hold their priests to a higher standard" that we are better than everyone else.

Shuffling child rapists from one unsuspecting parish to another is not a higher standard.

91 posted on 09/16/2013 6:18:18 AM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: servantboy777

You have missed my point. I have not said a word in “defense” of the behavior of abusers.

I have objected to your assertions that the Catholic Church had a problem that was somehow worse than other institutions—specifically the assertion that celibacy in some way increases the likelihood of abuse.

The fact is that the Catholic Church had less of a problem than other institutions, and has dealt with the problem more effectively.

Government schools have a worse problem with abuse, and have done NOTHING to ameliorate it.


92 posted on 09/16/2013 8:12:58 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: Arthur McGowan
The fact is that the Catholic Church had less of a problem than other institutions

I think that part of the problem is that while people don't like any sexual stuff going on like teachers dating students, or someone in a position of responsibility having an affair or cheating on their wife, that it is the Priestly concentration of predatory homosexual feeding on boys, that disturbs them.

If you notice, people don't seem much so badly shocked or overly disturbed to find out that an individual Priest might fall in love with an organist or a wife in his congregation, or a parishioner's teen daughter, in fact we never even hear of those common human failings that happen in all walks of life and work.

It seems to be the feeding on boys and the culture of homosexuality within the church, and the seeming cooperation and tag teaming and cover-ups and transfers for so many years within that gay culture, that makes the Priest issues unique.

Even the new Pope has publicly acknowledged that homosexuals are a force within his church and are organized to some degree, that a homosexual culture exists, something that the public has been disturbed and shocked at for decades.

The continuing tales of gay prostitution and gay hookers for some of the leadership in Rome doesn't help either. It was only 2 months ago that this Pope was caught up in a major appointment involving the homosexual problem within the Catholic church. I believe the appointment still stands.

93 posted on 09/16/2013 9:14:21 AM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet... Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: ansel12

I can’t make it any clearer than my last post.

Pax tecum..


94 posted on 09/16/2013 9:29:36 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: ansel12

You cite no hard facts—just “seeming.”

The “seeming” is due to the very fact that the media splash incidents involving priests all over the place, relegating Protestant abusers to the back pages, and hardly covering abuse by government school teachers.

The only homosexual priests the Pope “doesn’t have a problem with” are those who have lived a chaste life—i.e., who have actually practice continence.

You seem determined to indict clerical celibacy as a particularly powerful factor in causing sexual abuse. This is preposterous, and is contradicted by the actual statistics.


95 posted on 09/16/2013 10:19:49 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: ansel12

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3067369/posts


96 posted on 09/16/2013 10:33:07 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: Arthur McGowan

Wow, I didn’t mean to set you off, read that post again, it was explaining how this homosexual/boys thing makes for a different reaction from the public than the usual sexual failings of people, like I said, there isn’t much interest in Priests having the normal failings that befall so many men, such as having an affair with a female in the congregation or elsewhere, it is the homosexuality within the culture, and the interest in boys and the levels of a homosexual culture that is in the church, that shocks people so much.

Don’t make up things for me, such as making up a quote from me in quote marks about the pope that I didn’t say, or claiming that I commented on celibacy, much less “determinedly” or “to indict”, just like your fake quote, I never mentioned celibacy.


97 posted on 09/16/2013 11:30:03 AM PDT by ansel12 ( 'I'm on That New Obama Diet... Every Day I Let Vladimir Putin Eat My Lunch' .)
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To: D-fendr; ansel12
It should be obvious from my posts here - starting with the first one - that I see this debate as useless on the facts.

Problem is, NO facts have been given that support the contention that FATHERS deserve top billing as most likely to be pedophiles and molest their own children.

All I see here is evasion and deflection in attempt to get people's attention off a claim that pretty clearly false since there is nothing that has been provided to support it.

98 posted on 09/16/2013 12:04:42 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: annalex
It is precisely because we "hold their priests to a higher standard" that we are better than everyone else.

It's precisely because that standard is NOT enforced that the Catholic church is more culpable for enabling the molesters that they are NOT better than anyone else, but rather more reprehensible.

99 posted on 09/16/2013 12:06:39 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: ansel12

Perhaps it was someone else who said it.

If you are hunting for homosexuals, try the Anglicans and Episcopalians.


100 posted on 09/16/2013 1:09:57 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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