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When Were Joseph and Mary Married?
Catholic Answers ^ | September 20, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 09/21/2013 3:07:58 PM PDT by NYer

When the Archangel Gabriel visited Mary and declared unto her that she was called to be the Mother of God, as we see recorded in Luke 1, her response would become the cause of the spilling of a whole lot of ink over the centuries: “How shall this happen, since I know not man?” (v. 34, Douay Rheims, Confraternity Edition).

For Catholics this is an indication of Mary’s vow of perpetual virginity. It’s really quite simple. If Mary and Joseph were just an ordinary couple embarking on a normal married life together, there would be no reason to ask the question. Mary would have known very well how it could be that the angel was saying she would have a baby. As St. Augustine said it:

Had she intended to know man, she would not have been amazed. Her amazement is a sign of the vow (Sermon 225, 2).

But Protestants do not see it as quite so simple. Reformed Apologist James White gives us an example of the most common objection to our “Catholic” view of this text:

Nothing about a vow is mentioned in Scripture. Mary’s response to the angel was based upon the fact that it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception, and since Mary was at that time only engaged to Joseph, but not married, at that time she could not possibly conceive in a natural manner, since she did not “know a man” (Mary—Another Redeemer? p. 31.).

Among the errors in just these two sentences (I counted four), there are two that stand out for our purpose here.

Error #1: Mr. White claims Mary was engaged to St. Joseph.

There was no such thing as engagement (as it is understood in modern Western culture) in ancient Israel. The text says Mary was “betrothed” or “espoused” (Gr.—emnesteumene), not engaged. Betrothal, in ancient Israel, would be akin to the ratification of a marriage (when a couple exchanges vows in the presence of an official witness of the Church) in Catholic theology. That ratified marriage is then consummated—in the normal course—on the couple’s wedding night. So when Luke 1:27 says Mary was betrothed, it means they were already married at the time of the annunciation. If this were an ordinary marriage, St. Joseph would then have had a husband’s right to the marriage bed—the consummation.

This simple truth proves devastating to Mr. White’s (and the Protestant's) argument. If Joseph and Mary were married—and they were—and they were planning the normal course, Mary would have known full and well how she could and would have a baby. As St. Augustine said, the question reveals the fact that this was not just your average, ordinary marriage. They were not planning to consummate their union.

Betrothed = Married?

For those who are not convinced “betrothed” equals “married” for Mary and Joseph; fortunately, the Bible makes this quite clear. If we move forward in time from the “annunciation” of Luke 1 to Matthew 1 and St. Joseph’s discovery of Mary’s pregnancy, we find Matthew 1:18 clearly stating Mary and Joseph were still “betrothed.” Yet, when Joseph found out Mary was “with child,” he determined he would “send her away privately” (vs. 19). The Greek verb translated in the RSVCE to send away is apolusai, which means divorce. Why would Joseph have to divorce Mary if they were only engaged?

Further, the angel then tells Joseph:

Do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit . . . When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife (vss. 20-24).

Notice, Joseph took Mary “his wife,” indicating both St. Matthew and an archangel considered this couple married even though they were said to be “betrothed.” “Betrothed” is obviously much more than “engaged.”

Moreover, months later we find Joseph and Mary travelling together to Bethlehem to be enrolled as a family according to the decree of Caesar Augustus, just before Jesus would be born. They were obviously married; yet, even then, they were still said to be “betrothed” (see Luke 2:5).

So let's recap what have we have uncovered. First, Joseph had already taken his espoused “wife” into his home and was caring for her. Second, Scripture reveals him to be her legal husband and to have travelled with Mary to be enrolled with her as a lawfully wedded couple and family. Third, she was called St. Joseph’s “wife” by the angel of the Lord… and yet, they were still referred to as betrothed.

Referring to Mary and Joseph as “engaged” in the face of all of this evidence would be like calling a modern couple at their wedding reception “engaged” because they have yet to consummate their marriage.

Once the fact that Mary and Joseph were already married at the time of the annunciation is understood, Mary’s “How shall this happen…” comes more into focus. Think about it: If you were a woman who had just been married (your marriage was “ratified,” but not consummated) and someone at your reception said—or “prophesied”—that you were going to have a baby—that would not really be all that much of a surprise. That is the normal course of events. You marry, consummate the union, and babies come along. You certainly would not ask the question, “Gee, how is this going to happen?” It is in this context of Mary having been betrothed, then, that her question does not make sense… unless, of course, you understand she had a vow of virginity. Then, it makes perfect sense.

Error #2: Mr. White claimed, “…it was obvious that the angel was speaking about an immediate conception.” And, closely related to this, Mr. White then claimed Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" because she knew "at that time she could not conceive in a natural manner?"

Really? It was obvious?

There is not a single word in this text or anywhere else in Scripture that indicates Mary knew her conception was going to be immediate and via supernatural means. That’s why she asked the question, "How shall this happen...?" It appears she did not know the answer. How could she? Why would it ever enter into her mind? There would be no way apart from a revelation from God that she could have known. And most importantly, according to the text, the angel did not reveal the fact that Mary would conceive immediately and supernaturally until after Mary asked the question.

But let's suppose Mary was "engaged" as Mr. White claims. There would be even less reason to believe the conception would be immediate and somehow supernatural then there would be if Mary had a vow of virginity (though there’s really no reason to think this in either scenario). An "engaged" woman would have naturally assumed that when she and St. Joseph would later consummate their marriage, they could expect a very special surprise from God. They were going to conceive the Messiah. There would be no reason to think anything else. And there would be no reason to ask the question.

One final thought: When Mary asked the question, "How shall this happen, since I do not know man," the verb to be (Gr.-estai) is in the future tense. There is nothing here that would indicate she was thinking of the immediate. The future tense here most likely refers to… the future. The question was not how she could conceive immediately. The question was how she could conceive ever. The angel answered that question for her.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: sectarianturmoil
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To: Salvation; lasereye
One is incorrupt — so to me, that says that it is not a sin.

Except for the superficial wax face and hands masks painted to appear "incorrupt", she really isn't. Consecrating one's life to God CAN be done within marriage or outside it, but to GET married with the intent to both be always celibate pretty much corrupts the point OF marriage. And....isn't a non-consummated marriage grounds for an annulment in the Catholic Church???

81 posted on 09/21/2013 10:05:28 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Thanks for bring up the verses I could not remember, learning them has always been my down fall.

The one thing we do know about that time period is they married off girls shortly after their menses started, it was their way of stopping the garbage we are witnessing in today’s society of immorality.


82 posted on 09/22/2013 12:22:32 AM PDT by GailA (THOSE WHO DON'T KEEP PROMISES TO THE MILITARY, WON'T KEEP THEM TO U!)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
The most opportune occasion for such a vow was her presentation in the Temple.

Except that Judaism didn't have consecrated virgins.

The Protoevangelium of James (7-8), and the writing entitled “De nativit. Mariae” (7-8), state that Joachim and Anna, faithful to a vow they had made, presented the child Mary in the Temple when she was three years old; that the child herself mounted the Temple steps, and that she made her vow of virginity on this occasion.

The Gospel of James, also known as the Infancy Gospel of James or the Protoevangelium of James, is an apocryphal Gospel probably written about AD 145

Infancy gospels are not apocryphal, they are pseudepigraphal - without author or provenance - They are spurious works, and the very fact that the Protoevangelium of James injects pagan consecrated virgins into Judaism proves without a doubt that it is purely fiction (and poorly written).

I do so wish that our Romish FRiends would stop using spurious works as proofs.

83 posted on 09/22/2013 1:03:01 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: NYer

When the Archangel Gabriel visited Mary and declared unto her that she was called to be the Mother of God,


I can not find any scripture about Mary being the mother of God.


“How shall this happen, since I know not man?

The Catholics believe since Mary only had one child is because she was a perpetual virgin, just assumptions, no scripture to back it up.

The ones who argue the other side of the issue insists that since Jesus had brothers and sisters that Mary absolutely had to have other Children but can not come up with one scripture that says anything about Mary having any other child except Jesus.

And this is the way with so many arguments concerning religion, both sides does this in arguing against Mormonism they take one little scripture that has nothing to do with the issue they are discussing and try to say it says something it does not say.


84 posted on 09/22/2013 5:52:25 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: goodwithagun

I liked the alliteration sound of it. ginger Jesus, ginger Jesus, walking through the glenn, with his band of men.


85 posted on 09/22/2013 6:18:06 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: NYer; Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; ...

Having re-read the article and posts this morning, I have determined a solution:

We will form two new religious denominations, one that is that Mary and Joseph were married in modern sense and the other that they were not.

That difference will be the entire theological basis of these 2 new Christian religions.

Just being light-hearted and sarcastic.


86 posted on 09/22/2013 6:26:25 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: GreyFriar
Just being light-hearted and sarcastic.

And perceptive ;-).

87 posted on 09/22/2013 6:29:42 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Prioritize!)
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To: zot; Interesting Times; Alamo-Girl

As another said, this writer of the article has way to much time on his hands. See also my various posts including #85


88 posted on 09/22/2013 6:30:51 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Iscool

see my post #85


89 posted on 09/22/2013 6:35:22 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: GreyFriar
IMHO, we Christians have beautiful fellowship and accord when we focus on Jesus.

But when we focus on other things and beings, particularly lesser beings and physical things, we have disagreements. This is not bad, good will come of it. After all, He did not make us with a cookie cutter.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. - Romans 8:28

God's Name is I AM.

90 posted on 09/22/2013 6:57:50 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Iscool

I referenced all materials from the online Catholic Encyclopedia.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

But that being said, casting aspersions on some myths but not others is walking on thin ice. An awful lot of research and scholarship has been devoted to this. The cherry-picking used in the creation of the Bible is as much a part of it as anything else.

That being said, Catholics embrace some things that other religions do not, and no provable “right” or “wrong” doctrines exist.


91 posted on 09/22/2013 7:42:16 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (The best War on Terror News is at rantburg.com)
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To: roamer_1

As I mentioned before, Judaisms views of chastity do not mesh with Christians views of chastity. “Consecrated virgin” is a Christian term that would make no sense to the Jews of the period. However, this does not mean that the Jews didn’t have very complex ideas on the subject.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4263-chastity

But in turn, this places odd constraints on those Christian authors after the fact, trying to explain foreign ideas in Christian terms, to a Christian audience unfamiliar with the Jewish concepts.


92 posted on 09/22/2013 7:48:55 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (The best War on Terror News is at rantburg.com)
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To: Heart-Rest

Don’t believe Joseph and Mary were particularly holy, at least not on the level of Jesus or even John the Baptist.


93 posted on 09/22/2013 8:24:26 AM PDT by madison10
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
“Consecrated virgin” is a Christian term that would make no sense to the Jews of the period. However, this does not mean that the Jews didn’t have very complex ideas on the subject.

No, 'consecrated virgin' is a pagan concept, which is where it's foundation lies (see 'Vestal Virgins').

But in turn, this places odd constraints on those Christian authors after the fact, trying to explain foreign ideas in Christian terms, to a Christian audience unfamiliar with the Jewish concepts.

No, one of the unique hallmarks of the House of YHWH is that novelty is *not* permitted. Since there is no evidence of 'consecrated virgins' in the Early Church whatsoever (except in spurious works, falsely attributed to that time), one can readily rely on the introduction of such a thing as bowing to syncretism, something the Roman church has a peculiar penchant for, and something which YHWH hates passionately.

The reliance upon spurious invention where there is otherwise a paucity of proof should be a big clue.

94 posted on 09/22/2013 8:24:38 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Well, argue all you like with Catholics, but I assure you, Han Solo fired first.


95 posted on 09/22/2013 9:01:45 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (The best War on Terror News is at rantburg.com)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

LOL! It does not apply.

YHWH fired first (in the beginning) - It is the Roman church that is trying to alter the scene after the fact.


96 posted on 09/22/2013 9:19:03 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: plain talk

None of this matters. the Bible says nothing about Mary’s perpetual virginity ... period.


That is true, just arguing to prove their ideals but is based on assumptions with no scripture to prove it.

The other side points out scripture where it names the brothers of Jesus, but do not provide any scripture to prove Mary had other children, neither side proves anything.


97 posted on 09/22/2013 1:01:12 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Alamo-Girl

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,


Yeah, do you reckon it will get people to start reading the Bible to prove a point and actually find they have been told wrong, i know i have.


98 posted on 09/22/2013 1:07:32 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf; plain talk
The other side points out scripture where it names the brothers of Jesus, but do not provide any scripture to prove Mary had other children, neither side proves anything.

While technically true, the Protestant position has the convenience of leaning upon the norm - IOW, without some special circumstance being otherwise mentioned in the Scriptures, one can readily assume the Hebrew conventions of normalcy apply. Since no exception is mentioned (like with the 12 sons of Abraham from two different mothers, as specified), the normal condition seems to apply.

The Roman church must fall back to unattributed, spurious works to grasp for a condition wherein Mary can remain ever virgin - Something not required in the Scriptures, and having no value whatsoever in the Gospel message... Ergo the rather strained outcome with many unnecessary convolutions. But they *need* it to be true, lest the entire ecosystem of mariology should crumble into nothing, and they can't have that.

99 posted on 09/22/2013 1:53:14 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: ravenwolf
But Luther, Zwingli and Calvin did!! Want to check again on these threads?

Essays for Lent: Mary Ever-Virgin
Why is the perpetual virginity of Mary so important to Catholics? [Ecumenical Vanity]
Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary a Biblical View?
Aeiparthenos (An Anglo-Catholic Priest on Mary's Perpetual Virginity)
The Heõs Hou polemic is over: Radio Debate Matatics VS White & Svendsen on Perpetual Virginity Mary
The Early Church Fathers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Heõs Hou polemic is over: Radio Debate Matatics VS White & Svendsen on Perpetual Virginity Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

100 posted on 09/22/2013 1:55:44 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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