Posted on 09/29/2013 6:34:45 PM PDT by ebb tide
Sorry, I have never posted anything about that song.
Just wanted to offer you the true Gospel of being born again and filled with the Spirit.
Why shouldn’t I pray to them?
Non-Catholics just can’t agree on how to belittle Catholics, can they?
Fair enough.
But this proves my point that your Bible cannot be the sole rule of faith, since someone, or something, outside of the Protestant canon of Scripture, must determine what does, or does not, constitute the true collection of Books (Books => Biblia => Bible).
For Catholics, our Authority is the Church of Christ, or the Catholic Church, as it is more commonly known.
I tend to agree with you...Anyone but God...
Amen
Amen
As I pointed out, Jesus certainly edited the OT and he told us what was in it...Jesus disqualified any and all Catholic material from the OT...That's settled...
Your extra Catholic books in the New Testament have distortions, contradictions, outright errors and could not possibly be counted as scripture...So those are eliminated...
And yet your religion insists on sticking that stuff with the inspired words of God...
Well, as I have said in other threads it takes one being born again and filled with the Holy Spirit to see biblical errors in catholic or protestant religion.
Contrary to opinion here, I am not trying to be self-righteous or elitist or hold myself above others with some special knowledge.....I am simply stating the truth as revealed thru the Spirit. This truth is made available to every Spirit-filled believer and is what God wants for all His people...even those in religion.
What I am trying to say is that most people want their religion, traditions, and what they have believed all their lives rather than a personal relationship with the Living God. They have a form of godliness, but deny its power.
It is a scary thing to give up all you have ever known
to follow Christ but that is exactly what He tells us we must be willing to do. Even the rich young ruler had to go away saddened since he did not want to give up the riches he had.
Wishing and hoping have nothing to do with it. Everything spiritual happens by the will of the Living God and one will not comprehend that until His Spirit moves upon them.
I don’t follow Catholic or Protestant traditions. I simply follow Christ. And all I am asking anyone here to do is go to God in sincere prayer and ask Him to reveal Himself. If anyone sincerely desires Christ and only Christ, then they must be willing and prepared to surrender themselves completely and allow Him to lead...even if where He leads is out of Catholic and Protestant traditions, rituals, churches, etc.
In Phil. 3:7-8, Paul said: “But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. But indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ.”
Amen
(Prayer to St Michael the Archangel) I don’t think I have ever recited the long version but am going to say the short version multiple times per day (and at Latin Mass) as the Obamacare thing and other situations have me in a panic again. Perhaps St Michael can help defend against the demons that put thoughts of despair in our minds?
That guidepath is what the debate is about. AND, that is the reason why I continue to ask WHAT are you PROTESTING? Furthermore, why isn't every protestant denomination protesting the same things?
Your version is your version. It doesn't mean its the truth. You might protest what you see as errors in the Catholic faith but at the end of the day, you MUST rely on the Books of the Bible which were given to you, as well as 1500 years of teaching (prior to the reformation)to create your "truth." Yet, you don't want to acknowledge that lineage, or tradition. You simply want to dismiss it as well as other troublesome Biblical passages which refer to the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Peter being the Rock on which the Church was founded, etc.
Pick and choose what you want. But at least admit your version of the truth has NO lineage back to Jesus Christ nor his followers.
I think your faith, by the way, is fantastic. You should talk about it and live it just like we all should. But, on this thread, you're not doing that. You're just trying to undermine the faith of those of us who choose to be and are quite happy being the Spawns of satan...err...Roman Catholic.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
If that is all you can see then it may be all you want to see, rather than Pros opposing yet another of the incessant RC promotions of her doctrine in FR, and the utter absence of even one prayer to the departed in Heaven, or instructions to address anyone else on Heaven but the Lord, which instead is all that is exampled and taught.
And in response to me, it was a RC response to turn the debate to which canon is correct. Read more objectively.
A simple google search of prayer to Mary and the saints shows that those prayers are for far more than just asking them to intercede for people. They are prayers asking them directly FOR things. To do things FOR them.
And that authority comes from where and how do we know it?
I do have a guide path...it is called the bible. And without the Spirit of the Lord living inside one it is impossible to discern it rightly.
And every believer can be certain of what the Spirit is saying to them....but it takes being born again and filled with the Spirit....not just thinking or assuming one is.
That is what I am trying to impart to you here...it is not my version. And what you seem to fail to grasp is that I am not asking you to believe me or take me at my word but instead to go to God and ask Him to show you if what I have said is true or not.
This is the part that everyone here seems to miss. Don’t believe me, don’t trust me...but in sincere and earnest prayer ask the Lord whether what I’ve said is true.
However, it seems that “1500 years of teaching prior to the reformation” is more important than a simple believer coming to you and speaking truth. Remember what I said about being willing to give up “all things” to know Christ...only you can decide what is most important to you....to surrender all to Jesus...even your most precious, long-held beliefs...or to continue to cling to what you have always known.
Every protestant denomination is not protesting the same things because they are not all born again and Spirit-filled...just as I said in the previous post. The denomination matters not. And yes I know it sounds fantastic...how could it be so simple? But it is.
Believers are to call out error wherever they see it...not just in the Catholic tradition. And we are called to “make disciples.” That is why I am here telling everyone the simple truth of Jesus Christ. I am living it and telling it...we are called to do both.
My question is...do you want to be born again and Spirit-filled and have a personal relationship with God or do you want to cling to what you know? Go to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you in no uncertain terms. Can you not do that?
From the inside flap:
For as we enter the twenty-first century, there is a cry that would ring out from Jesus Christ of Nazareth, as He who neither slumbers nor sleeps, walks even today through the streets of London, Rome, New York, Beirut, Los Angeles, Delhi, His cheek wet with tears for a lost and fatherless generation neither cognizant of His presence nor caring.
But still He walks...unseen...and still He weeps.
Oh, and how long has He sought you, beloved? How many nights has He stood listening silently waiting in the shadows unseen by you? And as you lift up your tear-stained face to Him, half blinded by the radiance from that most beautiful of countenances, He reaches out His hand to you and His touch lingers on your cheek as He brushes away the tears that flow. And He smiles that most wondrous of smiles.
‘You?’ you mouth soundlessly.
And you hear His tender whisper: I have sought you all your life. Through all the pain, through the loneliness, I have sought you. Each time your heart broke soundlessly with the agony of not belonging, I sought you. Through each rejection, through each hour of despair, I sought you. I was there, loving you. Reaching out to you. It was Me all along. And as your eyelids gently close, as you are engulfed in His tender embrace and the tears fall, somewhere through the sands of time in that netherland betwixt sleeping and waking, you recognise that familiar presence and you too know that He was there. It was He all along.
To be fair, neither do you. And as such, the advantage would seem to favor those who go back to the original contract... To that which we all KNOW is true.
WHAT are you PROTESTING?
'Protestant' is a fairly broad term anymore, not indicative by it's name. However, the most of Protestantism, Pentecostalism, and to include Non-Denom Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and Congregationalists, would instantly protest the ways and means of the Roman church - They are not God's ways and means.
Furthermore, why isn't every protestant denomination protesting the same things?
Does the hand do the same thing as the foot?
[...]at the end of the day, you MUST rely on the Books of the Bible which were given to you [...]
Why MUST I? As a matter of fact, I have not.
[...] as well as 1500 years of teaching (prior to the reformation)to create your "truth."
Again, I need nothing of your 1650 years of 'teaching'. Nothing. Your 1650 years have produced a result that is profoundly against the Way of YHWH on it's face. If 'The Truth is Out There,' (which, it is) then it certainly is to be found elsewhere. And needfully again, the standard of measurement must be the inspired works of the original contract. That is what lays out the deal - the terms and work to be completed.
Yet, you don't want to acknowledge that lineage, or tradition.
Because that lineage is questionable (to be very kind) and that tradition is provably false on it's face. Why then should it be acknowledged?
Thank you for posting, roamer_1.
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/6Angels/AngelsPrayToGuardian.aspx
The Bible tells us that there are guardian angels. If one of their functions is to protect Christians, can we directly solicit or petition them in our times of need?
1. Examine the background to the Apostle Paul’s letters to the Galatians, 2 Corinthians and Colossians to understand the context of 2 Corinthians 11:14, Galatians 1:8, and Colossians 2:18. In what context does Paul refer to angels?
A common problem of the early church was doctrinal heresy. In these instances, Paul made a reference to angels.
2 Corinthians was in part written in response to a report from Titus who informed Paul that there were false teachers slandering Paul and challenging his authority. 2 Corinthians was written in the defense of his apostolic ministry. These “deceitful” teachers took pride in their Jewish heritage, placed a value on spiritual knowledge and experience, and preached “another Jesus” and “another Gospel.” Against this heresy, Paul draws a comparison: if Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, then his human agents of evil, these false teachers, can disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness.
In Galatia, false teachers were distorting the Gospel by preaching salvation by works of the Law. This perversion of the Gospel so concerned Paul that he denounced (Gal 1:1-24) anyone including angels from heaven who promoted this heresy; they would be accursed. Paul felt that any human or angel who perverted this important doctrine of salvation by grace deserved the condemnation of eternal destruction.
Troubling the Colossian church was a mixture of Judaism and Gnostic mysticism. False teachers were teaching the importance of Jewish food regulation and festivals as part of salvation and that Jesus was a higher being but not God. Paul strongly refutes (Col 2:1-23) this doctrine by emphasizing the supremacy of Jesus. Jesus’ atonement freed mankind from Mosaic legislation. Furthermore, the search of new spiritual experiences or worshipping angels was a reflection of false humility for it demonstrated human pride, which was the refusal to submit to the Gospel of Christ.
In these examples, Paul sees that the spiritual world can influence how we understand the Gospel, the person of Jesus Christ, and the authority of the apostles. Satan and his demons will use any means to blind people to the Gospel and hinder a Christian’s usefulness and witness.
False teachers are all associated with deceit and deception and very often under the influence of fallen angels. Satan demonstrated his deceit by distorting God’s word on two occasions: the temptation of Eve and the temptation of Christ.
For Christians today, it is vitally important to know the theology and doctrine expounded by the Bible. Both Jesus and the Apostle Paul used the Scriptures (in Paul’s case, the Gospel) as the standard of truth and as the basis to refute any theology that was contrary to it (1 John 5:18-20).
2. While the Bible forbids the worship of angels (Rev 22:8-9, 19:10), is prayer a form of worship? Can one still be devoted to angels and pray and petition them for their help (examine Ps 103:20-21, 148:1-2; Rev 8:3-4)? To learn more about prayer, study John 9:31, 14:13-14, 16:23-26, Ephesians 2:17-19, 3:11-12; 1 Timothy 2:5; Philippians 4:6-7; 1 John 5:14-15.
Throughout the Old Testament, the examples of prayer were directed only towards God. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ came specifically to be the mediator and intercessor for man, and in their instructions on prayer, both Jesus and His apostles indicated that man can and should direct their petitions to God. The Bible never once encouraged humans to seek or petition any other spiritual being.
Some have argued that since Psalm 103:20-21 and 148:1-2 contain invocations to angels, it means that human beings can personally pray to and petition angels. However this interpretation is not likely.
This interpretation failed to take into account the literary style and structure of these psalms. Psalm 103 is a psalm of praise that begins with the psalmist praising God in the singular and continuing to include the greater community of both people and angels. Psalm 148 is a wisdom psalm that moves from heaven to the people of the earth. Angels are mentioned for the poetic purpose of symbolizing created beings of the heavenly realms; the psalmist is calling on all created personal beings to praise the Lord.
In encouraging all created personal beings to praise the Lord, the psalmist is not suggesting that one can pray to angels with their personal petitions.
In just these two verses, the Psalmist clearly recognizes that holy angels act to carry out only God’s commands with poetic parallelism:
“… who perform His word, obeying the voice of His word!”
“You who serve Him, doing His will.”
Other biblical evidence that some use to support the practice of praying to angels includes Revelation 8:3-4. In this instance, the passage is interpreted as an example of a holy angel offering the prayers of Christians on earth and interceding on their behalf. This is a challenging passage to understand, but within the context of the Bible, this interpretation supporting the praying to angels is not likely.
Revelation 8:3-4 comes at an important junction when the seventh seal has just been opened and the contents of the scroll will be read. The outpouring of God’s judgments is about to occur. The Bible is not clear whether the angel with the golden censer was the recipient of the prayers of the saints or whether it was received elsewhere and added to the incense smoke.
This was no ordinary time, and it was not likely that these were ordinary prayers. Six seals had been opened and they represented events prior to the outpouring of God’s judgment contained within the scroll. These events included: war and conquest, famine, death, and natural catastrophes such as earthquakes.
A similar situation can be seen in the Old Testament Numbers 16 where a group of Israelites, facing God’s judgment, prayed and petitioned Him while the censers were lit with incense (Num 16:22). Shortly after, God rendered His judgment. Notice that the people prayed directly to God not to any other intermediary (i.e. Moses).
Worship is defined as the reverent devotion to God where this reverence is expressed in ceremonies and rituals. While the New Testament does not define the specific procedures of a worship service, several elements appear regularly in the worship practices of the early church. They are prayer, which was a leading element, praises and hymns, Bible studies, prophecy, and tithing. (1)
So while some advocates of praying to angels attempt to draw distinctions between worship and prayer to avoid the sin of worshipping angels, they cannot explain away the strong role that prayer played in the first century church worship service. In the context of the first century church, prayer is indeed a part of and a form of worship.
3. To what extent do unfallen and fallen angels exhibit free will? Examine Hebrews 1:14.
In Hebrews 1:14, the translated term “ministering” comes from the Greek term “leitourgikos,” which means “relating to the performance of service.” While holy angels serve Christians, they do so when specifically sent by God to fulfill His plan or purpose.
In their seeming response to the prayers of mankind, unfallen or holy angels are actually sent by God to respond if the Christian’s prayer is according to God’s will or pleasure. Thus the free will exhibited by unfallen angels is that they simply choose to submit to God’s leading. There are no biblical examples where an unfallen or holy angel acted on their own free will to minister to a Believer apart from and independent of God or His will.
Consistent with this is the fact that holy angels encourage the worship of God, the only One worthy of worship, and discourage everything else.
The only angels that have clearly exhibited free will independent of God are fallen angels who promote evil. Satan is a prime example of this along with biblical examples with his demons. In the instances in which the Bible records angels exerting a will apart from God, human beings have been harmed or were given false theological guidance or heretical doctrine.
The practice of praying to holy angels or saints in heaven for one’s personal petitions is a controversial issue. It does not seem to have any clear biblical evidence to support it and certainly none within the context of the whole Bible. There are naturally inherent dangers in such a practice, among them whether the petitioner has the ability to discern a response as holy or demonic. It may be worthwhile noting that Joseph Smith, who founded Mormonism, claimed that an angel named Moroni led him to the golden plates containing the Book of Mormon. As another example, Muhammad, who founded Islam, claimed that he received the Qur’an directly from the angel named Gabriel.
Reference
1. Youngblood RF, Bruce FF, and Harrison RK eds., Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers (1995).
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.