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Swimming the Tiber?
The Aquila Report ^ | November 20, 2012 | Mark Jones

Posted on 11/19/2013 6:10:28 AM PST by Gamecock

The Roman Catholic Church poses several attractions for evangelical Christians. Whether their motivation is Rome’s apparent unifying power, its claims to be semper idem (“always the same”), its so-called historical pedigree, its ornate liturgy, or the belief that only Rome can withstand the onslaught of liberalism and postmodernism, a number of evangelicals have given up their “protest” and made the metaphorical trek across Rome’s Tiber River into the Roman Catholic Church.

Historically, particularly during the Reformation and post-Reformation periods, those who defected back to Rome typically did so out of intense social, political, and ecclesiastical pressure—sometimes even to save themselves from dying for their Protestant beliefs. But today, those who move to Rome are not under that same type of pressure. Thus, we are faced with the haunting reality that people are (apparently) freely moving to Rome.

In understanding why evangelicals turn to Catholicism, we must confess that churches today in the Protestant tradition have much for which to answer. Many evangelical churches today are, practically speaking, dog-and-pony shows. Not only has reverence for a thrice holy God disappeared in our worship, but even the very truths that make us Protestant, truths for which people have died, such as justification by faith alone, have been jettisoned for pithy epithets that would not seem out of place in a Roman Catholic Mass or, indeed, a Jewish synagogue. Our polemics against Rome will be of any lasting value only when Protestant churches return to a vibrant confessional theology, rooted in ongoing exegetical reflection, so that we have something positive to say and practice alongside our very serious objections to Roman Catholic theology.

The attractions of Rome are, however, dubious when closely examined. For example, after the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Catholic Church lost not only the claim to be “always the same” but also its claim to be theologically conservative. Besides the great number of changes that took place at Vatican II (for example, the institution of the vernacular Mass), the documents embraced mutually incompatible theologies. Perhaps the most remarkable change that took place in Rome was its view of salvation outside of the church, which amounts to a form of universalism: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience” (Lumen Gentium 16; hereafter LG). Protestants, who were condemned at the Council of Trent (1545–1563), were now referred to as “separated fellow Christians” (Unitatis Redintegratio 4). Once (and still?) anathematized Protestants are now Christians? This is a contradiction. But even worse, present-day Roman Catholic theologians candidly admit that those who try to be good possess divine, saving grace, even if they do not explicitly trust in Christ.

Such a view of salvation is really the consistent outworking of Rome’s position on justification. So, while the Roman Catholic Church can no longer claim to be “always the same” or theologically conservative, she still holds a view of justification that is antithetical to the classical Protestant view that we are justified by faith alone. Whatever pretended gains one receives from moving to Rome, one thing he most certainly does not receive—in fact, he loses it altogether—is the assurance of faith (Council of Trent 6.9; hereafter CT). It is little wonder that the brilliant Catholic theologian Robert Bellarmine (1542–1621) once remarked that assurance was the greatest Protestant heresy. If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness, then assurance is impossible until the verdict is rendered. For Protestants, that verdict is a present reality; the righteousness of Christ imputed to us is the sole meritorious cause of our entrance into eternal life. But for Roman Catholics—and those outside of the church who “do good”—inherent righteousness is a part of their justification before God (CT 6.7).

The Reformation doctrine of justification was not something about which Protestant theologians could afford to be tentative. At stake is not only the question of how a sinner stands accepted before God and, in connection with that, how he is assured of salvation (1 John 5:13), but also the goodness of God toward His people.

In the end, our controversy with Rome is important because Christ is important. Christ alone—not He and Mary (LG 62)—intercedes between us and the Father; Christ alone—not the pope (LG 22)—is the head of the church and, thus, the supreme judge of our consciences; Christ alone—not pagan “dictates of conscience” (LG 16)—must be the object of faith for salvation; and Christ’s righteousness alone—not ours (LG 40)—is the only hope we have for standing before a God who is both just and the Justifier of the wicked. To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
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To: Gamecock

I cannot imagine why it so pushes RC’s over the edge to think that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us, credited to our account, without us having to earn it. Nothing seems to set them off more than to think that God is merciful and gives us His salvation and righteousness as a gift.

You’d think anyone in their right minds would jump at the chance.

Go figure.


21 posted on 11/19/2013 9:51:38 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: metmom

Shows thier wordliness. Everyone else in the world thinks they are good enough. Modern day Roman Catholicism thinks the same.

Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast.”


22 posted on 11/19/2013 9:56:33 AM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: Gamecock

“Hardly. Too many Roman Catholics high fiving when one does.”

Here’s a high five for you: last week representatives from a small but very influential Protestant denomination visited the Vatican to meet with a high ranking cardinal to formally request opening up dialogue between the Catholic Church and the aforementioned Protestant denomination. I won’t tell you the denomination’s name until it is revealed by that denomination and the Catholic Church, but it will be a big deal when it becomes public.

Are you feeling any better now? Somehow I doubt that.


23 posted on 11/19/2013 10:32:36 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: Campion; metmom
From metmom: If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness

Your response: Rome maintains nothing of the sort. Why do you guys have to keep making up nonsense like this?

The truth.

THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

Session VI - Celebrated on the thirteenth day of January, 1547 under Pope Paul III

CHAPTER XVI
THE FRUITS OF JUSTIFICATION, THAT IS, THE MERIT OF GOOD WORKS, AND THE
NATURE OF THAT MERIT

“we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life,”

Would you like to apologize to metmom?

24 posted on 11/19/2013 10:48:52 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Gamecock

In America, whites are leaving Catholicism, mass democrat immigration keeps the numbers somewhat steady.


25 posted on 11/19/2013 10:59:09 AM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: Gamecock

People searching for truth will be swimming the Tiber 2,000 years from now “so that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.”


26 posted on 11/19/2013 11:19:23 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Gamecock
From what I see it is those Protestants who wanted a religious experience or those who perhaps sought Jesus but never found him...

It is inconceivable to me that a Spirit indwelt Christian would take on a religion which teaches that you are in error and not indwelt with the Holy Spirit...I'd say it's impossible for a born again Christian to become a Catholic...

27 posted on 11/19/2013 11:31:03 AM PST by Iscool
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To: ex-snook
People searching for truth will be swimming the Tiber 2,000 years from now “so that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.”

Depends on what side of the Tiber you swam to...The far side feeds you the father once a week or so and you're good for about 20 minutes...

28 posted on 11/19/2013 11:33:30 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Elsie
Then we at least agree that people who believe Mary is dead believe Christ lied to the thief on the cross and that people who only accept the anti-Christ Pharisee Approved Luther Subset of Scripture believe the Holy Spirit cannot and did not protect the Word of God from error.

A simple clear statement like, "This is my body" isn't at all the same as the typical silly comparisons those who deny the power of the Holy Spirit try to compare it to but that's OK since by agreeing with the other two things I mention makes my point for me.

29 posted on 11/19/2013 12:45:26 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory)
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To: Gamecock
In the end, our controversy with Rome is important because Christ is important. Christ alone—not He and Mary (LG 62)—intercedes between us and the Father; Christ alone—not the pope (LG 22)—is the head of the church and, thus, the supreme judge of our consciences; Christ alone—not pagan “dictates of conscience” (LG 16)—must be the object of faith for salvation; and Christ’s righteousness alone—not ours (LG 40)—is the only hope we have for standing before a God who is both just and the Justifier of the wicked. To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ.

Thank you for posting this. The doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone was the MAJOR reason why I rejected the religion I was born and raised in and there is NO impetus for me to ever need to return to it. It is for that very reason that Bellarmine stated - there can be no assurance of salvation in a religion that makes personal righteousness the cause of it. This assurance - the imputation of Christ's righeousness clearly and unambiguously taught in Scripture - is something NOTHING can steal from me!

30 posted on 11/19/2013 1:59:13 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: metmom; Gamecock
This gist of the problem:

For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:2-4)

31 posted on 11/19/2013 2:06:59 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Rashputin
Your Logic 101 grade appears to have been rated WAY too high.

... we at least agree that people who believe Mary is dead believe Christ lied to the thief on the cross...

32 posted on 11/19/2013 2:12:38 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mad Dawg; Gamecock
I don’t understand anybody who swims the Tiber for reasons other than theological and ecclesiological, unless he had a vision or somesuch.

Which direction are you talking about? :o)

I swam away because of theological reasons but many Catholics have asserted (here, especially) that that isn't possible and the only reasons could have been for moral ones (i.e., disagreement over divorce, sex outside of marriage, contraception, etc.). Yet, when I left it was because I recognized that the gospel of Catholicism was NOT the gospel of Christ.

33 posted on 11/19/2013 2:14:10 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Nailed it!


34 posted on 11/19/2013 2:18:27 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Elsie
The number of Protestants consumed by fire at autos de fe, was quite small, although the Elizabethan propagandists made it seem like a million. The Spanish inquisition aimed more at ethnic cleaning, at Jews and Moors, than heresy.
35 posted on 11/19/2013 2:27:22 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: ansel12

Not to become protestants, not any more. More to become pagans, just like the children of the evangelicals. Neither side has any bragging rights.


36 posted on 11/19/2013 2:30:52 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: boatbums
Well, having read Thomas Sowell, I have at least to note that "Recognize" is the debatable word.
:-)

But yes, in either direction. Such a choice shouldn't be made on a whim or a "what the heck?" it seems to me.

37 posted on 11/19/2013 2:33:16 PM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: CynicalBear; metmom; Gamecock
Some more of THEIR truth:

If any one saith that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation...and that without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919), Canon IV, p. 119).

As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may again be justified...through the sacrament of Penance...For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance...and therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of said sins...and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of the spiritual life...for the temporal punishment, which...is not always wholly remitted. If any one saith that he who has fallen after baptism...is able to recover the justice which he has lost...by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance...let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter XIV. Canon XXIX.

In this divine sacrifice...that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner who once offered himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross...This sacrifice is truly propitiatory...If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice...and that it ought not to be offered for the living and dead for sins, pains, satisfactions and other necessities: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Chp. II, p. 180, Canon III).

The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated and cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those 'who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions' are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt...Following in Christ’s steps, those who believe in him have always tried to help one another along the path which leads to the heavenly Father, through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of love, the more they have imitated Christ in his sufferings. They have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others. They were convinced that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God who is the Father of mercies. This is the very ancient dogma called the Communion of Saints...The “treasury of the Church” is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy. This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body...God’s only-begotten Son... has won a treasure for the militant Church... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ’s vicars on earth, so that they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation. They may apply it with mercy for reasonable causes to all who have repented for and have confessed their sins. At times they may remit completely, and at other times only partially, the temporal punishment due to sin in a general as well as in special ways (insofar as they judge it to be fitting in the sight of the Lord). The merits of the Blessed Mother of God and of all the elect ... are known to add further to this treasure (Paul VI, Indulgentiarum Doctrina, January 1, 1967).

Justification...is not the remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man. If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, and does not truly merit increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter VII, Canons X, XXXII).

38 posted on 11/19/2013 2:41:28 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

And of what does that assurance consist, becoming a saint or just feeling justified, or something else?


39 posted on 11/19/2013 2:41:34 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: Mad Dawg

Yes, I agree. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.


40 posted on 11/19/2013 2:49:34 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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