Posted on 09/03/2002 6:17:02 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
Matt 18
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Whoops! There goes that one!
"2) ..."The church, with believers as the body and Christ as the head, did not exist until after Christ ascended to become its head. And it could not become a functioning entity until after the Holy Spirit provided the necessary spiritual gifts (Eph. 4:7-11)" (117). "
See above. Oh, and btw, Eph 4 does not claim that the church could not "become a functioning entity until after the Holy Spirit provided the necessary spiritual gifts "
"3) "The third evidence is the mystery character of the church (117)." A mystery in the Bible is a hidden truth not revealed until the New Testament (Eph. 3:3-5, 9; Col. 1:26-27). "
The 'mystery' is not 'the church', but the message of the gospel which was hidden but now is revealed! It was the truth of which "Moses and the Prophets" made known (Luke 24:13-27,32)
"4) "The fourth evidence that the church is distinct from Israel is the unique relationship between Jews and the Gentiles, called one new man in Ephesians 2:15" "
"5) "The fifth evidence for the distinction between Israel and the church is found in Galatians 6:16"
Paul makes no such distinction! In fact, as I have already pointed out, he ~ELIMINATES~ the distinction (Gal 3:28, Col 3:11)
"6) "In the book of Acts, both Israel and the church exist simultaneously. The term Israel is used twenty time and ekklesia (church) nineteen times, yet the two groups are always kept distinct" "
Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
x, guess what the 'church in the wilderness' is? It's Isreal! Oh, and notice the 'Greek' word used here is 'ekklesia'.
Whoops! There goes that one, too!
Sorry, x, I'm not impressed. I'll stick with the Scriptures!
Jean
Yes, Ezek. 45:15,23-25,
Fruchtenbaum fails to make the elementary but critical distinction between Israelites and Jews. We know that all Jews are Israelites, but the overwhelming majority of Israelites are not Jews. He wants to lump Hebrews, Semites, Israelites and Jews together as one, and that is absurd at even the definitional level. His use of the phrase "Israel is viewed theologically as..." does not effectively mask his illogic and is not helpful to his case.
There is no distinction between the two!
In fact, the Bible calls the 'Jews' in 2Kings 16:6 before the destruction of the Northern Kingdom by the Assyrians in Chapter 17.
In 2Ki.18:26, the Jews asked the Assyrians not to speak in the Jewish language.
Did the Northern Kingdom have a language different then the one in the South?
Oh, yes, thats right, the South (Judah) spoke Jewish and the North spoke Hebrew.
http://www.hopeofisrael.net/triblost.htm
The Distinction Between Israel and the Church "The New Testament consistently differentiates between Israel and the church," claims Arnold Fruchtenbaum.1 Fruchtenbaum supports this conclusion through a powerful twofold argument in which he first demonstrates the biblical view of Israel and secondly, by showing that the church is viewed in the New Testament as a separate entity.
The whole article and thread is another, "Classic"!
Maranatha!
2002 and 5763
:-)
From another thread:
Happy New Year......5,763.......years since the CREATION!........5763
The 'Evolution teaching' (the 'bang' myth ...billions/millions of years error )
....is a "Goy" (Gentile) PAGAN "Myth/Philosophy".......!
:-)
Maranatha!
2002 and 5763
So what?
They were a divided kingdom!
Samaria was the capital of the Northern Kingdom and Jerusalem the south.
They and would remain divided until God brought them back together as a nation. It would be like saying 'tell the people of Richmond' (the Conferderate capital) and Washington D.C.(Northern Capital).
Your view that a Jew is different then an Isralite is nonsense.
Notherners in this country are still called Yankees down South.
Does that mean that we are two separate people because the Northeners are called a different 'name' then Southerners.
So, when foreigners told Americans 'Yankee go home' they were really only talking about Northerners!
>... the Bible calls the 'Jews' in 2Kings 16:6 2 Kings 16:6 says absolutely nothing about 'Jews'. Where are you getting this fantasy? There were no Jews until ~500 BC.
In 2Kings 16:6 it says
At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria and drave the Jews from Elath, and dwelt there until this day.Pick up a Bible and read it!
The Northern Kingdom was destroyed in the next chapter.
>In 2 Ki.18:26, the Jews asked the Assyrians not to speak in the Jewish language. 2 Kings 16:6 says absolutely nothing about 'Jews'. Where are you getting this fantasy? There were no Jews until ~500 BC. >Did the Northern Kingdom have a language different then the one in the South? There is no reason I know of to believe their language was different at the time of the breakup of the David Kingdom. There is however an abundance of evidence showing the Hebrew roots of the Celtic language(s) of Europe, and America. However, language still remains the weakest of all methods for tracing the movement of peoples.
Well, the South had just been destoyed by the Assyrians so there was no time for a new language to develop.
The North and the South (like our North and South) both spoke Jewish-Hebrew. (same language, same people)
>Oh, yes, thats right, the South (Judah) spoke Jewish and the North spoke Hebrew. What exactly is the difference between the "Jewish" and "Hebrew" languages?
There is none, they are just two names for the same thing. >http://www.hopeofisrael.net/triblost.htm This is not a reliable and bias free site looking for the truth. It is a site dedicated to bashing British Israelism, and by it's use you are trying to attach me to them. That attachment is slanderous. The introduction to my LostTribe Freeper Home page clearly states: This site is about HISTORY, both Archeological and Biblical.
If it is so 'biblical' how come you did not know about 2Kings 16:6!
It is NOT about Christian or Jewish Identity, British Israelism, White Power or anti-Semitism, so if that's what you're looking for, SCRAM! I speak for no one else and no one speaks for me, so WYSIWYG. If you are a serious student of HISTORY, and have an open mind, read on...
The Jews have 12 tribes which God knows as shown by Rev.14.
The tribe of Levi was represented in Ezra, so that tribe was known, even if the Northern Kingdom was wiped out.
So, do you consider the Levites 'Jewish' or 'Israelites'
Amen and Amen!
We are very close to the 'sabbeth rest' of the Millennial reign!
You are using the infamous DARBY "translation". That is no Bible, it is a JOKEBOOK! Next you will be quoting from the National Geographic and The Commerce Business Daily. Look at that verse in REAL Bibles and see that they say nothing at all about Jews. You are betting on the wrong horse!
Boy are you cracked in the head!
Everyone who has seen any of my posts on the subject knows I only use the King James.
I did check the NIV and NASB and they don't read Jews!
The King James strikes again!
And the Darby had it also?
Well, he got it right, because he followed the right reading found in the Bible.
Yes, this is an excellent example of a problem causing people to disagree unnecessarily, caused by a mistranslation (or by editorial bias) in the original King James Version. "Men of Judah" was not the same as "Jews".
There are many such examples of KJV errors. They are well documented. This error and many others were corrected in the NKJV and other later Bibles.
This example points out the need for constant vigilance and reevaluation of what mere men have done before. The word "Jew" was not in the original source documents.
The ASV, WEB, and the YLT all have Jew for 2Kings 16:6.
In Youngs Analytical Concordance of the Bible states,
Jew: a descendent of Judah, in later times also an Isralite. In 2Ki.16:6 this appellation is applied to the two tribes, in later days the twelve tribes.
Just as I gave you the example of 'Yankee'.
Strictly speaking a 'Yankee' is only a Northerner.
And even a stricter meaning is to make it refer to only those from the New England area!
However, the meaning has to come to mean to those who are non-Americans, all Americans.
A 'Jew' strictly speaking meant the tribe of Judah.
The term however has been broadened to mean all of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Leaving aside the issue of errors in the King James, other translations did have it as noted in my earlier post (ASV,YLT)
This example points out the need for constant vigilance and reevaluation of what mere men have done before. The word "Jew" was not in the original source documents
Now, that is funny! Even the Septuagint (Origen, 3rd century AD) has 'Jew'
The word in 2Ki.16:6 is not 'men of Judah' as the NIV has, but Jew.
I checked both Hebrew texts and they read the same.
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