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NJ Governor McGreevey a devout Catholic, yet diplomatic {Barf Alert}
Press of Atlantic City ^ | 01.11.04 | Pete McAleer

Posted on 01/11/2004 1:45:27 PM PST by Coleus

McGreevey devout, yet diplomatic

By PETE McALEER Statehouse Bureau, (609) 292-4935

Ask Gov. James E. McGreevey about the Tropicana Casino Parking Garage collapse and the first person he mentions is Sister Grace Nolan from Atlantic County Catholic Charities and her power to console in the midst of tragedy.

Listen to the governor speak and you're likely to hear a lighthearted story about the nuns who taught him at St. Joseph's grammar school in Carteret.

Stop in his office in Trenton and you will see numerous pictures of John F. Kennedy, the first Catholic president, and his brother Robert.

McGreevey's Catholic faith is an integral part of his political identity and he is not shy about letting people know it. Yet refer to him as a Catholic politician and McGreevey shakes his head as if he doesn't appreciate the term. The response is hardly surprising.

McGreevey's politics and the politics of the Catholic Church don't always follow the same path. Right now, it would seem the two could not be further apart.

Last Sunday, McGreevey signed a bill that made New Jersey just the second state to promote stem-cell research. He is expected to sign a bill Monday that provides benefits to same-sex couples. And McGreevey supports needle-exchange programs based in a hospital setting.

The New Jersey Catholic Conference, which serves as the lobbying arm for the state's Catholic bishops, has posted three legislative alerts on its Web site since October: oppose human embryonic stem cell research, oppose domestic partner benefits and oppose needle-exchange programs. Citing moral grounds to oppose each issue, the organization asks readers to contact McGreevey's office and urge him to veto the legislation.

Repeated calls to the New Jersey Catholic Conference Executive Director Bill Bolan seeking comment for this story were not returned, but the organization released a statement that said the bishops are "deeply distressed" that McGreevey signed the stem-cell bill into law.

"We believe it is more important than ever to stand for the principle that government not treat any living human being as research material, as a mere means for benefit to others," the statement read. "Research that relies on the destruction of some defenseless human being for the possible benefit to others is morally unacceptable."

The stem-cell law gives patients at fertility clinics the option to donate for research unused embryos that otherwise would be discarded. The church condemns the procedure because it involves researchers destroying days-old embryos. Scientists hope to use stem cells to replace damaged organs and tissues and eventually find cures to diseases.

During an interview in his office, McGreevey recalled a woman from Wisconsin he met just before Christmas. Her daughter suffered from a degenerative brain disease. Doctors drilled six holes into the girl's head and injected thousands of cells into her brain.

"For the first time in her life, her daughter's smiling," McGreevey said. "She's moving her arms. She said to me, 'Jim, this is a miracle.' "

McGreevey paused a few moments when asked how he reconciles the disparity between his views and the views of his church.

"For that mother there is such profound suffering, and we have an opportunity to alleviate that suffering," he says. "From my perspective, it's reflecting on the compassion, on the caring, on the love of Christ. To cure the sick, to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked."

Though McGreevey's clashes with church politics date back to his campaign for governor - he supported abortion rights and criticized Republican opponent Bret Schundler for supporting school vouchers - he is hardly the first Roman Catholic politician to stray from church policy. Former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo, former vice presidential candidate Geraldine Ferraro and current Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry all caught flak from the church for their pro-choice stance on abortion.

Yet McGreevey's efforts are far bolder. While pro-choice Democrats are practically a redundancy, few states have supported laws that recognize the rights of gay couples. California is the only other state to approve stem-cell research.

The Vatican, meanwhile, has taken steps to reassert its political power. In January 2003 it released the "doctrinal note on some questions regarding the participation of Catholics in political life." The paper reiterated the church's opposition to stem-cell research, abortion, same-sex marriage and euthanasia and urged Catholic politicians to vote in line with those "non-negotiable ethical principles."

McGreevey believes he is doing just that, even if his own ethical compass doesn't follow the path set by the Vatican.

"We all reflect on our respective faith traditions and family values and upbringing and we struggle and we search in our hearts to do what is morally right, what is morally compassionate, what is morally decent," McGreevey said. "For me, Christ's great courage was his compassion and decency."

After the interview, McGreevey grabbed a copy of a book he's reading by Garry Wills, called "Why I Am A Catholic." In it, Wills fondly remembers his Catholic upbringing and argues that one can criticize church leaders while embracing the tenets of the Catholic faith.

It is that same philosophy that allows McGreevey to continue to reference his Catholic faith at a time when bishops are offering prayers that the governor will change his mind about his stance on stem cell research. Ask him about the past year's battles with Atlantic County Sen. Bill Gormley and the Governor smiles and recalls Sister Grace.

"She prays for both Sen. Gormley and I both," McGreevey says. "And I'm counting on it."

To e-mail Pete McAleer at The Press:

PMcAleer@pressofac.com


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: abortion; aids; bias; bisexual; catholic; catholiclist; catholicpoliticians; cloning; domesticpartners; drugaddicts; gay; hiv; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; homosexualunions; mcgreevey; mediabias; needleexchange; newjersey; nj; stemcells; wodlist
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I wonder why the reporter never contacted any of the 5 bishops in the state for their official comments regarding the issues above and whether someone can be a "devout" Catholic and still be in favor of homosexual unions, embryonic stem cells, human cloning, and needle exchanges. Nor did the reporter ever mention that the governor is divorced and has a daughter living in Canada and remarried in the Episcopal Church. The reporter never stated that the stem-cell bill included human cloning.

The stem-cell law gives patients at fertility clinics the option to donate for research unused embryos that otherwise would be discarded>>

The Catechism of the Catholic Church forbids in-vitro and in-vivo fertilizations for this very purpose. The so-called "embryo" is a human being and deserves to be born.

The church condemns the procedure because it involves researchers destroying days-old embryos.>>>

The church condemns the procedure because it involves researchers destroying human beings, with a soul, created in God's image and likeness.

1 posted on 01/11/2004 1:45:29 PM PST by Coleus
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To: All
Rank Location Receipts Donors/Avg Freepers/Avg Monthlies
51 Chile 50.00
1
50.00
5
10.00


Thanks for donating to Free Republic!

Move your locale up the leaderboard!

2 posted on 01/11/2004 1:47:24 PM PST by Support Free Republic (If Woody had gone straight to the police, this would never have happened!)
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To: All
Catechism of the Catholic Church #2271...

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DOCTRINAL NOTE
on some questions regarding
The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

Living the Gospel of Life:
A Challenge to American Catholics

A Statement by the Catholic Bishops of the United States

Faithful Citizenship:
Civic Responsibility for a New Millennium

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS
TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION
TO UNIONS
BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS

An Old Testament, Litany of Life
Canon Law and Abortion

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2274...

Sign Petition:
The Gospel of Life--Evangelium Vitae
Herod's Heroes


3 posted on 01/11/2004 1:48:29 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season, Keep Christ in CHRISTmas and the X's out of it.)
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To: Coleus
McSleazy must be talking lessons from Howard Dean.
4 posted on 01/11/2004 1:49:44 PM PST by Kuksool
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...
`
5 posted on 01/11/2004 1:51:44 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season, Keep Christ in CHRISTmas and the X's out of it.)
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To: Coleus
just what we need, a devout catholic bisexual governor.
6 posted on 01/11/2004 1:52:10 PM PST by oceanview
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To: Coleus
I left the Catholic Church last year and became Presbyterian.

I was sick and tired of the Catholic Church's stance as anti-Iraq war even though hundreds of thousands of people will not die as a result of our intervention.

I was sick and tired of the Catholic Church ignoring the homosexuals in their midst (priests) who prey on young boys. It is not pedophilia, it is homosexual aggression gone rampant.

I was sick and tired of the Catholic Church giving an anullment to Edward Kennedy and turning a blind eye to his and other prominent Catholic politicians' indiscretions.

The Catholic Church needs to kick these Rats out of their church and refuse to give them communion. Tell them that they are not wanted. Tell Americans that if you support abortion, stem cell research, etc, you can not be a Catholic in good standing and receive communion.

When the Catholic Church grows some balls (instead of feeling them), I might return.
7 posted on 01/11/2004 1:57:40 PM PST by Erik Latranyi
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To: Coleus
After the interview, McGreevey grabbed a copy of a book he's reading by Garry Wills, called "Why I Am A Catholic."

Yup, that's about right. Anti-Catholics like McGreevey and Wills need to be tosed out as they do grave spiritual harm to the Church by misrepresenting Catholicism to the public.

8 posted on 01/11/2004 1:58:51 PM PST by JohnnyZ (I pity the fool who thinks Bush's proposal is the same as amnesty!)
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To: Erik Latranyi
When the Catholic Church grows some balls (instead of feeling them), I might return.

Stay where you are until you figure out what religion is about. Your bitterness and hatred would only poison the Church were you to rejoin now.

9 posted on 01/11/2004 2:02:28 PM PST by JohnnyZ (I pity the fool who thinks Bush's proposal is the same as amnesty!)
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To: Coleus
Yeah, I especially like his same sex benefit package passed recently in NJ (major barf). Maybe he is taking his cue from the Catholic church in embracing it. Meanwhile live-in heterosexuals do not have access to health care. I'm not saying they should but only emphasize special rights given to homos and exalting perversion.
10 posted on 01/11/2004 2:29:35 PM PST by nmh
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To: Kuksool
He's a devout Catholic who was divorced from his first wife (who I read somewhere is so terrified of him (for what reason I do not know) she lives in British Columbia with their daughter), has remarried and had another child.

But he's a devout Catholic and that's all that counts, right?
11 posted on 01/11/2004 2:39:59 PM PST by ladylib
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To: ladylib
I think a "devout Catholic" is any person baptized into the Church as an infant who tells a reporter he feels devout. I believe Howard Dean would qualify.
12 posted on 01/11/2004 2:43:35 PM PST by madprof98
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To: madprof98
Zsa Zsa Gabor (anyone remember her?)used to tell people she was a devout Catholic.

That woman governor Grandholm(?), Michigan is pro abortion but she's also a devout Catholic. I don't see how.

I was raised a Catholic, had some issues with the Church, and decided I could no longer be a Catholic (it would be hypocritical of me, and I don't pick and choose the rules I want to follow as far as the Church is concerned), but then again, I'm not a politician.
13 posted on 01/11/2004 2:52:04 PM PST by ladylib
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To: Coleus
**It is that same philosophy that allows McGreevey to continue to reference his Catholic faith at a time when bishops are offering prayers that the governor will change his mind about his stance on stem cell research.**

I'm afraid that Gov. McGreevey needs to wake up to what the Catholic Bishops are saying!


14 posted on 01/11/2004 4:10:49 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Erik Latranyi
There have been many changes in the Catholic Church.

Maybe you need to re-investigate. And you are always welcome to return the the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
15 posted on 01/11/2004 4:12:42 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ladylib
That woman governor Grandholm>>

Stop Granholm

16 posted on 01/11/2004 4:12:50 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season, Keep Christ in CHRISTmas and the X's out of it.)
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To: ladylib
Catholics and Politicians -- For your reference:

The Deadly Dozen

Canadian Prime Minister Taunts Church: "I Am A Catholic And For Abortion"
Catholic Church asks Tom Daschle to stop calling himself a Catholic
On Catholic Politicians and Faith
Vatican Urges Catholic Politicians to Vote Along Church Lines
Senator Santorum on Being Catholic and a Politician
William E. Simon, Sr. and Jr. Devout Catholics, Philanthropists and Politicians
Deadly Dozen senator taken to task over claims of Catholicism
THE BISHOP AND THE SENATOR [author links to FR thread regarding Daschle in her online column]
Blood On Their Hands: Exposing Pro-abortion Catholic Politicians
MI Gov Granholm Proclaims June "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Pride Month"
Colorado Governor To Media:'WE LOVE OUR CHURCH' [Gov. Bill Owens
U.S. Senator Brownback and Commentator Dick Morris Join Catholic Church
PRIEST REFUSES COMMUNION TO KNEELING PRO-LIFE POLITICIAN [Richard Black, Virginia]
Kerry [Catholic} says he'll filibuster Supreme Court nominees who do not support abortion rights
Pope to MPs: Stop gay marriage
Vatican - Considerations regarding ... homosexual persons
CONFUSIONS ABOUT POLITICAL JUDGMENT AND THE MORAL LAW
Prelate says politicians who back abortion shouldn't go to Communion
Bishop draws fire for targeting Chrétien
Kennedy likens Vatican stance on gay unions to 'bigotry' (oh, go get a job, you little creep)
Ignorance or Malicious Intent? "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to..."
George Weigel on Authentic Catholic Citizenship, and the Duty of Catholic Politicians to Behave as Catholics
Conservative Catholics urge Church to challenge "dissenters"
[Robert F., Jr.] Kennedy to speak at Festival of Faiths (Environmentalism as religion)
Faithful Catholic Politicians
Catholic Bishops Eye Possible Crackdown of Pro-Abortion Pols
PETITION TO EX-COMMUNICATE PRO-ABORTION CATHOLIC ELECTED OFFICIALS
It is Time to Excommunicate the Politicians
Church vows to fight gay marriage: Catholics pressure pols
Should politicians toe their church line?
Church May Penalize Politicans
Catholic politicians facing dogmatic threat
Bishop appeals to Catholic lawmakers [Wisconsin]
New St. Louis Catholic Archbishop Warns Pro-Abortion Catholic Politicians of Excommunication.
Bishop Objected to AIDS Walk
Wisconsin Catholic Lawmakers Seek Victim Status In Feud With Bishop
Bishop Burke discusses the letters he sent to Catholic politicians
Congressman Places Internal Pro-Abortion Docs in Congressional Record
Flynn: Dems ignore Catholics
Granholm gay rights order "a slap in the face"
Calif. Bishop To Gov. Davis: Pick Abortion Or Communion [formal excommunication?]
California Bishop to Gov: Oppose Abortion or No Communion (New Title)
Sacramento Bishop Challenges Governor on Abortion; Tells Davis to Stop Receiving Communion
Granholm's Bible-thumping Sure to Rile GOP
Bishop: No Communion for Abortion Backers
Legislators can't have Eucharist, bishop says: Don't serve supporters of abortion rights, euthanasia
Wisc. Bishop Tells Pro-Abort. Catholic Pols: Change Your Stripes or Stay Away from Holy Communion
Diocese targets Granholm on abortion

17 posted on 01/11/2004 4:15:03 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Coleus
Why did you highlight the needle exchange. Is that against church doctrine?
18 posted on 01/11/2004 4:17:03 PM PST by breakem
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To: thenderson; jjm2111; jmc813; jocon307; Freemeorkillme; Chilijr; agrace
`
19 posted on 01/11/2004 4:20:04 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season, Keep Christ in CHRISTmas and the X's out of it.)
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To: Coleus
The Gov. can say that he is Catholic until you know what freezes over. He is a Catholic in name only. You cannot go against the teachings of the Church and be in good standing.It is about time that the Bishops start telling these jokers just where they stand. I cringe everytime I hear these people being refered to as Catholic.
20 posted on 01/11/2004 4:26:44 PM PST by mom-7
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To: breakem; *Wod_list; *Catholic_list
Why did you highlight the needle exchange. Is that against church doctrine?>>>

Yes, it promotes drug abuse and the demise of the human spirit and human dignity and gives the wrong impression to children who will think the govt. and Catholic Church condones drug abuse. Those who use drugs usually steal the money to foster their habit and drug needles will only make the problem worse. And, the church is almost sure that the state will force Catholic Hospitals, Shelters, etc. to be the sites for these exchanges. The bill has no provisions for drug rehab.

The underlying purpose of the change, however, is to permit needle exchange programs to take place for intravenous drug users. While the New Jersey Catholic Conference has larger concerns with this legislation, there is some immediate potential impact on public and nonpublic school children.

OUR POSITION: There are three major considerations for our opposition to this legislation with respect to children:

1. The decriminalization of the possession and sale of hypodermic syringes and needles (that is the removal of their definition from the term “drug paraphernalia”) opens the way for needle exchange programs for addicts in New Jersey. Such programs send a message of tolerance for intravenous drug use to children in both public and nonpublic schools.

2. The individuals who will be able to sell and purchase such syringes and needles will, in the future, be able to do so at established sites. These sites may be accessible through drug-free school zones. Will the next step be to provide lesser degrees of penalties for individuals who venture into these drug-free school zones as a result of their efforts to receive clean needles?

3. The New Jersey Catholic Conference has been involved extensively with treatment programs for individuals who have drug addictions. Although our goal would be to eliminate the need for these programs by eliminating the threats opposed by such afflictions such as HIV/AIDS, we believe that the government should mandate treatment programs if any needle exchange program is to be adopted. S-2794 will permit such needle exchange programs to take place without any mandatory treatment program.
http://www.njcathconf.com/LegActionAlerts/Social_Issues/S2794NeedleExchangeLtrhd%20Dec1.htm

21 posted on 01/11/2004 4:27:24 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season, Keep Christ in CHRISTmas and the X's out of it.)
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To: Coleus
Your equating things which may be bad or self indulgent with things that are serious sins and counter to major doctrine. It's your post, but it is not consistent. How about being affluent and using a state limo, isn't that contrary to a good catholic life?
22 posted on 01/11/2004 4:29:49 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
It's your post, but it is not consistent>>

I posted a newspaper article and the position of the NJ Catholic Conference (the media activist arm of the 5 dioceses in NJ). Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you can read that and make your own decision. one of the tentacles of Satan reaching out to us is drug use where it's very insidious in nature and it ruins human lives, the lives in families and fosters people to commit other very grave sins contrary to moral law.

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

2211 The political community has a duty to honor the family, to assist it, and to ensure especially:

- the freedom to establish a family, have children, and bring them up in keeping with the family's own moral and religious convictions;

- the protection of the stability of the marriage bond and the institution of the family;

- the freedom to profess one's faith, to hand it on, and raise one's children in it, with the necessary means and institutions;

- the right to private property, to free enterprise, to obtain work and housing, and the right to emigrate;

- in keeping with the country's institutions, the right to medical care, assistance for the aged, and family benefits;

- the protection of security and health, especially with respect to dangers like drugs, pornography, alcoholism, etc.;

- the freedom to form associations with other families and so to have representation before civil authority.
23 posted on 01/11/2004 4:43:08 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season, Keep Christ in CHRISTmas and the X's out of it.)
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To: Coleus
You critized and juddged the guy for needle exchange. Some argue that this is better for public health and taxpayer pocket books. The jury is out either way. It is a public policy call and I do not see the church explicitly condemming needle exchange.

If you don't agree with something okay, but setting yourself up as the popes advisor is arrogant and in this case wrong.

24 posted on 01/11/2004 4:46:13 PM PST by breakem
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To: breakem
You critized and juddged the guy for needle exchange>>

What the heck are you talking about? It was part of the newspaper article. And the position of the RCC in NJ. Arrogant? Are you sure you aren't doing something with needles.
25 posted on 01/11/2004 4:57:50 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season, Keep Christ in CHRISTmas and the X's out of it.)
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To: Coleus
Anyone who's foolish enough to believe McSkeevey should look into the events surrounding his divorce from his first wife. At the risk of sounding like Wesley Clark, it's common knowledge among Woodbridge insiders (he was mayor of that town prior to running for gov.) that he was carrying on an affair Jim Kolbe would be proud of. Once the wife found out, she basically dictated the terms of the divorce: she took her two kids back to her native British Colombia with no visitation rights OF ANY KIND being granted to Dandy Jim. In return, she keeps her mouth shut. The Schundler people knew about this, but were so chastised by the media pounding they were getting that they didn't know how to get it out there in a credible source. Now, Jimmy's got a new trophy wife and kid, watch the body language between them -- he's no more into her than I'm into Rosie O'Doughnuts.
26 posted on 01/11/2004 8:09:03 PM PST by BroncosFan (Pat Toomey for Senate!)
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To: Coleus
If James McGreevey is a Catholic, I'm a Martian. How about those homosexual rumors I keep reading about? How about murdering babies??

McGreevey is a typical leftist Democratic Charletan. Since he is from New Jersey, however, nobody notices, not even the Jersey Republicans, who are, for the most part, hardly any better.
27 posted on 01/11/2004 8:13:29 PM PST by ZULU (Remember the Alamo!!!!!)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Coleus
The rule is very simple . . .
Whatever McGreevey says is a lie!

NJ Governor James McGreevey
A Miserable Failure

29 posted on 01/12/2004 1:18:47 AM PST by thenderson
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To: Erik Latranyi
I was sick and tired of the Catholic Church's stance

I bailed in the 1980s, when the Catholic clergy in El Salvador were arming and supporting Communist rebels, and teaching that Jesus Christ was the first Communist. "Liberation Theology" they called it.

It came to a head when the rebels killed a man I knew, and when "international opinion" condemned the El Sals' targeting of some of the Maryknolls who directly supported his murder. I was out of there.

Unfortunately I went to the Episcopalian church. Talk about bad judgment on my part! From a far-left church that promotes and defends closeted homosexuals, to a far-left church that celebrates open ones. Oh, brother.

Looking for a denomination, over here. I am A Man Without a Church.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

30 posted on 01/12/2004 8:13:48 AM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Coleus
2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense.

Does that also apply to the drug alcohol?

31 posted on 01/12/2004 10:07:26 AM PST by Land of the Free 04
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I bailed in the 1980s, when the Catholic clergy in El Salvador were arming and supporting Communist rebels, and teaching that Jesus Christ was the first Communist. [...]Looking for a denomination, over here.

If you're looking for one with no sinners in it, you'll be looking till you die.

32 posted on 01/12/2004 10:09:04 AM PST by Land of the Free 04
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Looking for a denomination, over here. I am A Man Without a Church.

Please take a look again at the Catholic Church. Every Church is filled with sinners and the Catholic Church is no exception.

I find if spend an hour or so with Our Lord in front of the Blessed Sacrament my anger fades about some of the most outrageous sins ocurring supposedly in the name of the Church. I am left with sorrow for the sins, but sorrow leaves my faith intact.

Maybe if you find a Catholic Church in your area with Adoration this will work for you too.

God Bless.

33 posted on 01/12/2004 10:47:47 AM PST by old and tired
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To: Coleus
you're likely to hear a lighthearted story about the nuns who taught him at St. Joseph's grammar school in Carteret. ..."She prays for both Sen. Gormley and I both"

Bet those nuns love that grammar.

McGreevey disgraces everyone with whom is name is associated.

34 posted on 01/12/2004 11:08:29 AM PST by old and tired
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To: Land of the Free 04
If you're looking for one with no sinners in it, you'll be looking till you die.

Good point, but my standards are not quite that high. If I could hit the three high points of belief in God & Jesus Christ, not supporting people trying to shoot me or eat my liver in third world settings, and with a hierarchy (if any) that opposes rather than celebrates sin, I'd be happy.

As it is I have a Bible, my faith, and I am happy, but it's uplifting to worship with others; and doing good works in the framework of a church is also pleasing to the psyche and, I believe, the soul. So I'll keep looking, not for a Church without sin but for one where sin isn't the headliner, getting top billing over Jesus -- and that's how I felt, and feel, about the RCC and ECUSA. I don't mean to disparage those Christians who keep faith within those churches.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

35 posted on 01/12/2004 5:52:21 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: old and tired
Bet those nuns love that grammar.   GiddyUp!... as does every stickler educated by those nuns!   :-)

McGreevey disgraces everyone with whom is name is associated.    GiddyUp and then some!!
36 posted on 01/12/2004 6:41:41 PM PST by GirlShortstop
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To: Land of the Free 04
2290
The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others' safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

1809
Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will's mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called "moderation" or "sobriety." We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74

To live well is nothing other than to love God with all one's heart, with all one's soul and with all one's efforts; from this it comes about that love is kept whole and uncorrupted (through temperance). No misfortune can disturb it (and this is fortitude). It obeys only [God] (and this is justice), and is careful in discerning things, so as not to be surprised by deceit or trickery (and this is prudence).75
 

 

37 posted on 01/12/2004 8:43:26 PM PST by Coleus (Tagline? Yes, I have skin tags, should I pull them off?)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
one where sin isn't the headliner, getting top billing over Jesus -- and that's how I felt, and feel, about the RCC

With all due respect, that's nonsense. The sins you refer to were never part of Church doctrine nor representative of the majority of clergy or laity. The plain fact is that only the Catholic Church extends back to the time when Christ founded His church.

38 posted on 01/13/2004 6:42:07 AM PST by Land of the Free 04
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To: Coleus
The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine.

I agree that the excessive use of alcohol or other drugs is a sin.

39 posted on 01/13/2004 6:46:04 AM PST by Land of the Free 04
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To: Land of the Free 04
In the RCC, getting excessively drunk is a mortal sin!
40 posted on 01/13/2004 7:40:12 AM PST by Coleus (Tagline? Yes, I have skin tags, should I pull them off?)
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To: Coleus
I wonder why the reporter never contacted any of the 5 bishops in the state for their official comments regarding the issues above and whether someone can be a "devout" Catholic and still be in favor of homosexual unions, embryonic stem cells, human cloning, and needle exchanges.

Good question, and why I get my news at FR.

41 posted on 01/13/2004 7:43:47 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Coleus
Mortal? Are you sure?
42 posted on 01/13/2004 7:45:27 AM PST by Land of the Free 04
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To: Land of the Free 04
It all depends..

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/208805.htm
43 posted on 01/13/2004 11:17:52 AM PST by Coleus (Tagline? Yes, I have skin tags, should I pull them off?)
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Erik Latranyi
Don't let the door hit you in your self-righteous ass. The Church does not exist to pamper your ego or ratify your agenda. Apostacy becomes you. I'm sure you'll be welcomed into the ranks of the Orangemen with open arms.
45 posted on 01/13/2004 11:33:24 AM PST by Dionysius
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To: Salvation
There have been many changes in the Catholic Church

You mean they are now in favor of some standards?

Or have they started to remove the homosexuals that are poisoning the church?

Have they stopped supporting communist regimes around the world and stopped turning a blind eye to those who are oppressed?

46 posted on 01/13/2004 2:33:59 PM PST by Erik Latranyi
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I bailed in the 1980s, when the Catholic clergy in El Salvador were arming and supporting Communist rebels, and teaching that Jesus Christ was the first Communist

Another reason I left the church as well.

47 posted on 01/13/2004 2:35:45 PM PST by Erik Latranyi
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To: Dionysius
The Church does not exist to pamper your ego or ratify your agenda.

Actually, the Church needs to have an agenda that returns to the principles of Jesus Christ.

They are still pandering to the homosexuals in their midst and the dictatorships around the world, calling the United States a bad country when we adhere the closest to the Word.

You call me self-righteous?! Well, unlike the Church, at least I know right from wrong.

48 posted on 01/13/2004 2:41:33 PM PST by Erik Latranyi
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To: All
A note on terminology.

The term "devout Catholic" in the mass media invariable means someone who will claim a Catholic "identity" while simultaneously rejecting utterly one or more major parts of the Catholic faith, typically those concerning sexual morality.

Real Catholics call people like that "heretics," "apostates," or "cafeteria Catholics".

The mass media calls real Catholics "rigid," "triumphalist," "patriarchal," "traditionalist," "anti-Semitic," and "homophobic" ... but never "devout".

49 posted on 01/13/2004 2:41:39 PM PST by Campion
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To: Erik Latranyi
calling the United States a bad country when we adhere the closest to the Word.

LOL, yeah, aborting 40 million of our own citizens, propagandizing for it abroad, and promoting abortion and contraception in the third world is really sticking close to that there "Word," Erik. Yessiree.

Don't delude yourself. The USA is under Divine judgement and condemnation, right here, right now, today.

50 posted on 01/13/2004 2:43:44 PM PST by Campion
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