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How to talk to an atheist (and you must)
Townhall.com ^ | January 24, 2005 | Mike S. Adams

Posted on 01/26/2005 9:46:21 AM PST by 7thson

When I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I saw a car covered with sacrilegious bumper stickers. It seemed obvious to me that the owner was craving attention. I’m sure he was also seeking to elicit anger from people of faith. The anger helps the atheist to justify his atheism. And, all too often, the atheist gets exactly what he is looking for.

(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: atheist; christian; christianity; convertordie; cslewis; god; jesuschrist; mikesadams; religion; wrongforum
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To: GadareneDemoniac

> If I have devised a fool-proof way to steal X dollars from somebody...

Keep in mind, the vast majority of the duration of modern man on Earth was spent *prior* to people haing much in the way of stuff. Super-criminals and perfect criems and whatnot were not a concern... living to next week was. THAT was the crucible in which our sense of morality evolved.

So, yeah, there are situations brought about by relatively recent developments that challenge my basic hypothesis. But that's when man's capacity for *reason* kicks in. Most of us know instinctively that theft is basically wrong. Those that don't know that instictively... well, let's hope they get religion and live in fear of eternal punishment.


81 posted on 01/26/2005 10:42:43 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: RobRoy

> To a true atheist, the word "moral" really has no meaning.

An amazing display of hubris married with staggering arrogance, there.


82 posted on 01/26/2005 10:43:36 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: xJones
The Oxford don's book is not for light-weight readers, it takes some intelligence and rationality to read through it.

Aye, but C.S. Lewis (like Bertrand Russell) constructs arguments that are fundamentally flawed in many places. They are lovely seductive arguments (hence why they are oft-referenced), but they are not rigorously correct arguments and could be taken apart by someone already well-studied on the topic. C.S. Lewis uses specious reasoning that does not cut it for rigor, so I would generally not recommend using that to convince a knowledgeable, rational, and intelligent atheist. Quite honestly, C.S. Lewis makes me cringe precisely because there are so many transparent flaws in his reasoning.

By far the most rigorous theologian on the rationality of Christianity is William Bartley, most famously in his book "The Retreat To Commitment". While the book is not written as a truly rigorous construction, others have shown that it can be written up as a rigorous construction in a mathematical sense (something with which I concur). Because of this, it is well-received by atheists since most will be able to follow the correctness of it from first principles. C.S. Lewis et al make unreasonable assumptions in their arguments, which is why many atheists reject the arguments.

So, nix the C.S. Lewis and go with W.W. Bartley. It is your best shot for the well-educated, intelligent, and rational.

83 posted on 01/26/2005 10:44:33 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Tempest
I also hope that those whom have chosen incorrectly.... (yes it's a joke... kinda) will come around in due time.

I think we all hope this.... : )
84 posted on 01/26/2005 10:45:21 AM PST by Stone Mountain
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To: 7thson
I do not think Newdow is capable of showing respect to anyone.

I first heard Newdow in an interview on the Dennis Miller show, and I was surprisingly impressed. He presents his views in a rational and reasonable manner, neither strident nor intolerant of anything except a violation of his Constitutional rights.

What is so scary about someone's not believing in god or an Invisible Pink Unicorn or Santa Claus or The Tooth Fairy? And then objecting to being required to swear allegiance to one or both or all?

85 posted on 01/26/2005 10:45:23 AM PST by Nicholas Conradin (If you are not disquieted by "One nation under God," try "One nation under Allah.")
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To: MineralMan
God loves you anyway, and Christ died for your sins as well as mine.

He also gave us free will to accept or reject Him.

If I am wrong, what have I lost? If you are wrong, what have you lost?

I hope you'll accept our prayers for your awakening in the spirit in which they are intended.

86 posted on 01/26/2005 10:47:32 AM PST by JimRed (Investigate, overturn and prosecute vote fraud in the State of Washington !)
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To: orionblamblam
"There are some nasty ones, of course, but that's true for both [atheist/religious] sides."

Bullsh*t.

That's the same apologist technique the MSM uses regarding the Dems vs. GOP.

Proportionally, the hostility isn't even close.

87 posted on 01/26/2005 10:47:47 AM PST by F16Fighter
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To: 7thson

Want to start a fight among atheists? Ask them to state what they believe without using the word "God." They have no trouble telling the world what they don't believe--they have enormous difficulty articulating what they DO believe.


88 posted on 01/26/2005 10:47:57 AM PST by Antoninus (In hoc sign, vinces †)
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To: BibChr
But I will say that it should be, and if it isn't, it's fatally off-base.

What if two people made the same decisions in life, one guided by the rewards/punishment of God, and the other by the earthly rewards/punishment of man. And assume both people make the same decisions....is the man who acting because of his belief in God any more moral or righteous than the other?

I do not see anything that make a decision made because of a fear of God any different than that same decision made for non-religious reasons.

89 posted on 01/26/2005 10:48:01 AM PST by TheOtherOne
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To: Renderofveils

> I submit that life is more precious to some atheists BECAUSE this is all we have.

Indeed. To atheists and agnostics... this is our one shot at doing good. There will nto be an opportunity to recieve reward for havign done right or take punishment for having doen wrong; all we can hope for is to leave the world better off for having been here.

Why some people would be horrified by that idea, I can't guess.


90 posted on 01/26/2005 10:48:49 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: RobRoy

"No, but religious people have "remorse" for immoral deeds. To a true atheist, the word "moral" really has no meaning. He may claim it does, but he is lying - or he is really not an atheist. As I said, the main character in Natural Born Killers is how a TRUE atheist lives his life.
"

That's just silly. Of course atheists have moral values. I learned mine at my mother's and father's knees. They're probably identical to yours, and carry the same weight for me.

This argument you're using is not well reasoned. One needn't have a higher power to have moral values. Such values are taught by societies, as well as religions.

Perhaps you fear that if you did not believe that you would do all sorts of horrible things. Perhaps that is true, in your case. In mine, I can't imagine going against my moral values. I don't fear myself, and nobody needs to fear me, unless they attack me or my family with intent to do bodily harm.

I will never steal your stuff. I won't sleep with your wife. I'll help you out if I find you in a bad situation, if I'm able to.

Atheists are just like everyone else. They behave well, if they have learned moral values. They behave badly, if they have not.


91 posted on 01/26/2005 10:49:08 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: orionblamblam
I've yet to come across a bit of (generally accepted) morality that can't be defined in this way.

How about euthanasia?

92 posted on 01/26/2005 10:49:14 AM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: JimRed

You're welcome to pray for me or for whatever you wish. That's your choice.


93 posted on 01/26/2005 10:50:24 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: annalex
What would an atheist bumper sticker be?

How about, "I don't believe in God" or "God is a Myth" for example?

The answer is, an atheist monument is absence of a monument. An atheist bumper sticker is absence of a bumper sticker. Since that is not satisfying to some atheists, instead of proclaiming their atheism they need to vandalize my monuments or insult my religion.

Wow, that's some straw man you managed to erect and bring down...
94 posted on 01/26/2005 10:51:13 AM PST by Stone Mountain
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To: orionblamblam
Nope. Committing such acts greatly increases the risk to yourself and your potential progeny, at no gain.

Untrue. Many murders result in gain for the murder. There is a risk reward ratio.

Do you think that anyone has ever gotten away with murder? If so, were they OK to murder?

Were individual Nazis at great risk for murdering?

Over the last million or more years, as we evolved from a smart ape-like critter to the more or less civilized species we are now,

Wrong thread for that opinion.

That's why there are a number of acts that are pretty much *universally* considered immoral.

Ah. morality by vote. LOL If it's universally thought to be moral, it is. Liberals love situational ethics too.

You convince people that God told you to do so?

Impossible to tell what this comment means.

95 posted on 01/26/2005 10:51:27 AM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: JimRed

> If I am wrong, what have I lost?

Your immortal soul, quite possibly. If you are wrong doesn't mean only that maybe there's no god. Could also meant here is a god... who doesn't like Christians. Maybe the Muslism are right. Maybe the ancient Sumerians. Maybe something completely alien.

None of these possibilities are reasons to act like a schmuck, though, despite what bigots like RobRoy have to say.


96 posted on 01/26/2005 10:51:33 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: AppyPappy
Even Jesus said He wasn't good.

He said that out of irony...

97 posted on 01/26/2005 10:52:06 AM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: TheOtherOne
It is sad that some people are only good to get their reward and avoid punishment.

Yes, for those people it is truly sad, because that's not Christianity. Salvation is through faith, not works. True Christians aren't trying to do good in order to be saved. True Christians are trying to do good because we ARE saved.

98 posted on 01/26/2005 10:52:25 AM PST by GLDNGUN
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To: Protagoras
If there is no God and therefore no reward or punishment because there is no afterlife, how can there be such a thing as right and wrong?

Don't you ever do (or not do) something, just because it "feels wrong", or because it's just innately abhorrent to you? Don't you ever do something nice for someone without thinking about in the context of your faith or what you might get out of it? (Either spiritually or materially or even egotistically?)

Some things are just so obviously right or wrong that you don't need religion to know it, imo.

99 posted on 01/26/2005 10:52:33 AM PST by exnavychick (There's too much youth; how about a fountain of smart?)
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To: RobRoy
I hope you know more about Christianity then you do about Atheism or morality.
100 posted on 01/26/2005 10:52:55 AM PST by Durus
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