Civil war erupts over Confederate handbags

DFW ^ | January 6, 2006 | JIM DOUGLAS

[stand watie]

can you DOCUMENT any of that REVISIONIST BILGE from REAL original sources??? i think NOT.

what you posted is PROPAGANDA from the most extreme SOCIALIST/LEFTIST,lunatic, fringe of northeastern academia.

in other words, you've been lied to & made a fool of.

free dixie,sw

[Casloy]

I have a BA in History with an emphasis on Southern ante bellum history. I have a Masters degree in Southern history. Both are from a southern university. I spent countless hours in the national archives doing research, so don't tell me what is revisionist, because in fact what you are spouting is the same, tired old efforts to re-write history to serve your laughable attempts to justify the unjustifiable. What you lack is a critical mind and an inability to distinguish what is genuinely valid primary source material, and what has been pulled out of someone's ass just to make a point. What people like you do is start with a point of view, then dig through whatever information you can get your hands on to support your thesis. You naturally dismiss anything that doesn't suit your purpose, and attack anyone who points out alternative source material as being socialist, leftist, and northeastern. The fact you sign your posting "free dixie" is pretty much indicative of what you believe. The south lost the war and it was a very good thing they did. There is no more dixie except in the addled brains of a few sad people like yourself. The Confederate soldiers were a group of honorable men fighting for what they believed in. Unfortunately, part of what they believed in was in their right to own other human beings. It was a lousy cause and they were doomed to lose. But lose it they did, so get over it. The war ended 140 years ago and you are an American not a Confederate.

[Casloy]

It might be just as accurate to say that without violent anti-slavery, there would have been no war.

Well, of course, had the north not cared one whit about slavery there wouldn't have been a war. But, I don't agree that it was the violence against anti-slavery that drove the South to secede. A bitter cold war had been brewing for years over the expansion of slavery into the new territories and states. My view is that given the long history of the sectionalism, war was virtually inevitable. The depth of the animosity, and the level of hatred and mistrust meant that war, and a bloody one, was probably the only way this issue was going to be resolved and remove the sectionalism that would not let the nation grow. I think you can look back and find a million things that could have been done differently that might have prevented the war, and the top of my list was not electing Buchanan. On the other hand, I think war would have broken out eventually.

[Pelayo]

stand watie: can you DOCUMENT any of that REVISIONIST BILGE from REAL original sources??? i think NOT.

I could though. BTW I like your screen name, my mom has got a good dose of Cherokee in her. But, I think you are make'n a mistake by denying the sentiments of the South. This comes close to home for me, since it's documented that my family did specifically own slaves and at least some of my ancestors where planters. The truth is most Southerners were terrified of give'n blacks arms. Arming them was the whole point of Osawatomie Brown's Harpers Ferry raid remember. Brown threatened to turn all the South into a Saint-Domingue. John_Taylor_of_Caroline's last post makes that point. Remember that after the war a lot of radicalism of the KKK ironically mimicked those of the earlier Yankee "Wide Awakes."

[jaguaretype]

I see you have met stand. This is who stand watie claims to be for your reference:

"Tell the truth and you will never have to remember what you said" A quote my father taught me.

Stand Watie's CV as follows as gleaned from HIS OWN FR postings:

Employment

1) Current HVAC (Heating and Air Conditioning) Company Employee in as yet undisclosed capacity.
2) Current "Guest Lecturer" at undisclosed College (writes Faculty notes, has typewriter's capital letters modified and does research
although not Tenured Faculty Member.....as of this writing)
3) Current "Policy Wonk" at undiclosed Non-Profit Organization
4) Current Partner in a Security Company seeking Middle East Security Services Contracts
5) Former Professor of Something at an undisclosed Texas Church related College
6) Former English 101 Teacher somewhere (College level English Comp)
7) Former Instructor/Professor at US ARMY Military Police School
8) Former Security Supervisor for a large City/County Hospital (unclear as to why Mr. Watie equates two separate entities)
9) Former Magazine business executive who entertained clients

Education

1) English Lit Undergrad on one post
2) Political Science Degree (either MS or BS/BA - not sure)
3) Public Policy Degree (either MSPP or BS/BA - not sure)
4) Public Administration Degree (either MSPA or BS/BA - not sure)
5) Additionally states "i wrote one of my 3 mini-thesis (sic) for my ms on san jacinto." (not stated where this MS was aquired and
unclear as to where one prepares more than one Thesis for a Masters) One might assume logically that "ms" means Master of Science.

Army ROTC / Joined Army in 1969-74. then to Grad School 1974-1979 but also did Grad school at Tulane in 1976-1978
apparently attending Auburn Grad School concurrent to attendance at Tulane. Somehow during this same period of 1976 -1977 he
was assigned as an advisor with a TXARNG unit with a "Squadron" of M-60 tanks. Maybe part of a Master's Thesis - not sure.

Not sure why Army service was listed as 1969-1974 but could refer to actual AD service period (ref. note 2 below)

Military Service:

1) 20.5 or 25 (depending on the post) years of AUS service as MP/Provost Marshal/specializing in spec
ops/counter-guerrilla training, RAP/RAS/division MP ops, VN & Gulf War Vet MOCS 1542 & 31D35. At one time assigned to US Army Crim Investig Command
2) These 20.5 or 25 years seem to emcompass Reserve Duty and AD
3) Carried a sawed off 12 gauge shotgun on duty overseas allegedly as an MP and in direct violation of Military Regulations.
4) Dual Military Occupational Specialties as 31D35 (military police/miltary intelligence) and 1542 (Aviation Adjutant General's corp)
5) Former US Army Criminal Investigations Division assignment. USACIDC
6) Former "LEO" who refers to another LEO as "the idiot in blue, with badge & gun" recalling an alleged incident at the Pentagon
7) Has been anticipating a CONTUS callup to Iraq for AD since at least as far back as December 2003. Seemingly from 2 weeks to 120 days from happening.
This callup would be for a 58-60 year old vet who was retired due to disability.
As of September 2004 still no callup but his business partner and he are awaiting a "security services contract" anytime now that will
result in his trip to Iraq.
Said contract apparently has not yet materialized but he is currently (Fall 2005) stating he expects to get his CONTUS
orders soon. He has a Master Jailer's Certificate which he hopes to put to good use.
8) 1970-1971 was both in Zwiebrucken, Germany while also being in Texas in 1971 with the TXARNG undergoing testing for his Expert Infantry Badge.
9) 1991-1992 was stationed presumably AD in Venezuela which fits the 25 year service claim but during the very same time period was called up from
retired reserve (medical disability) for duty from the retired reserve, "when the 1st bugle blew" to go fight in the Gulf War (official battle
engagement date Jan 17, 1991) thus again being half a world away at the same time.

Additional Claims:

1) He is writing a book which will be out in spring or summer of 2005 not sure of topic but perhaps about General Sherman. unsure as to new
release date as of Winter 2006.
2) Has an uncle with 2 different names ie: "Wayne Thomas Bankhead" and renamed "William Thomas Bankhead" both listed as PO3s on the USS Champion during WW2.
3) Former member of NAACP until Indians were "kicked out" for being too conservative. This from an organization that never has denied membership to any color or creed,
4) Former member of SCLC were he "knew" both Dr. M.L. King and Jesse Jackson so well he knows what Dr. King personally thought of Jackson. further claims he knew Coretta and MLK's father.
5) His Father knew, liked and was a member of Col. P. Tibbets B-29 flight crew days before the Enola Gay's best "ride".
6) A friend of his named James ____ designed the A-10 Warthog Close Air Support Sled ..... apparently by himself as no other credit is noted.
7) His Army quartersmate was Capt. Damon Runyon relative of the famous author/playwright of the same name.
8) He once had ALL of the active and retired Swiss Military Generals at his home at the same time. All of them.
9) He was a Boy Scout and of course reached Eagle Scout level.
10) His mother recieved a Commendation letter of appreciation from an unamed commanding general "for her assistence (sic) of a vast but
incalculable amount to the deployment & troop support effort during Operation Desert Storm".
11) He met Eddie Rickenbacker's (WWI ace) wingman when Watie was 17 years old.
12) At 16 years old (1964) he was the Campaign Manager for a "Bill Miller" who was running for 1st Congressional District of TX (from a Zell Miller
thread so not sure of the link there as Zell Miller himself ran for Congress that same year in Georgia)
13) Mantains a Confederate sniper snorked a Union Lt from 1600 yards with mid 1800's hardware and that 1600 yards is "more than a mile" thus pointing
out that 1600 > 1760.......but math appears not to be one of his undergraduate or graduate courses of study.
14) Once when investigating a homicide he parked his vehicle seemingly directly over or on top of "a LIVE 250 pound general purpose bomb!" and
even more amazing is that when he returned to his vehicle to use his radio, a bystander said "UH, captain, before you move your jeep, you oughta look
under the right front tire." This bystander amazingly either was close enough to observe this bomb and know what it was and obtuse enough to allow
another unsuspecting person to walk right up to that dangerous situation.

Posting locations and actual verbatim postings can be provided for review/recollection.

Lacuna narro pro lacuna.

[Heyworth]

Lincoln only freed slaves in those states "in rebellion" and not in states such as Maryland.

And Lincoln insisted on including the 13th amendment in his 1864 platform, which DID free the slaves in all states. If a Confederate agent hadn't killed him, he'd have lived to see the amendment ratified.

[M. Espinola]

"can you DOCUMENT any of that REVISIONIST BILGE from REAL original sources??? i think NOT."

In terms of "that REVISIONIST BILGE from REAL original sources?" the answer is, yes! All Freepers should review what your friends at the "League of The South" have to say about everyone on Free Republic - naturally excluding members from "League of The South", perpetually causing problems on FR.

Mike Tuggle: The Leftist-Imperialist Alliance

"Want to see how rickety our republican institutions have become?"

"Go to http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/browse and read the posts from the members of Free Republic.com."

"The bloodthirsty posters at “Free Republic” – a name so deceptive and misleading that it borders on the obscene -- worship naked power.

"These people dare the "defeatists" to get in Bush's way as he flexes executive power by ordering wiretaps -- he don't need no stinkin' warrants!"

"They glory in the exercise of American military might, and become positively ecstatic at news reports of Iraqi insurgents being blown away by the US occupation army."

"At Free Republic, the preferred solution to the continuing resistance to American-style liberation is to kill anyone who so much as questions their liberators."

original source - the "League of The South"

Those "comments" were posted by the official 'blogmaster' for the "League of the South".

Stand, would you care to revise your statements?

"what you posted is PROPAGANDA from the most extreme SOCIALIST/LEFTIST,lunatic, fringe of northeastern academia.

Stand, since you and a few others have previously defended "The League" do you agree with the "documented" comments from the "original source"?

Stand, are you a member of the "League of The South"?

[Ditto]

Stand, are you a member of the "League of The South"?

I heard they keep him up in the attic. You know, the crazy uncle.

[tkathy]

Stand, when I was in college, there was a certain type of individual that was labeled "closet case" (put in the closet when guests arrived).

[groanup]

barf,barf and barf.

[N. Beaujon]

I dont know how I got on this ping list but I'm sure glad I did. Thank you. Friends of the South? Sheesh.

[Casloy]

But, I think you are make'n a mistake by denying the sentiments of the South.

I don't deny the sentiments of the south, what I do find objectionable is the total denial of what was going in the south that was immoral and evil. Most of the world had at that point outlawed slavery, but the south not only continued it, but found in it a higher moral purpose. Read some of the anti-abolitionist tracts from the time period and it will make your skin crawl. I completely understand the desire to remember your heritage and to look back with nostalgia, even if that nostalgia is based on fiction. We all do that. But, to ignore one of the fundamental causes of the sectionalism that led to the Civil War simply because it is uncomfortable to talk about is wrong. To attempt to rewrite history just so as to pretend that slavery was not an issue, is stupid.

[TexConfederate1861]

I know that 6000 blacks are known to have served in the Confederate Armies from Texas,both on the frontier, and in other capacities. And before you call me a "crackpot", Neo-Confed, or other insulting name, I hold a Masters in American & Texas History.....There are also documented accounts of blacks marching with Lee's Army into Maryland, (armed). The most famous account was written by Fredrick Douglass.....

[M. Espinola]

"If a Confederate agent hadn't killed him, he'd have lived to see the amendment ratified."

President Lincoln's maniacal and devious murderer was the ultimate manipulative villain, the perfect ghoul, to play the key role with other cold blooded Confederate co-conspirators in their diabolical scheme to assassinate America's President, Vice-President & Secretary of State. The plot was a vicious, treasonous decapitation of the United States executive branch. What would have happened next, the rest of the government held hostage by Confederate agents?

Machiavelli had nothing on Booth!

Mary Henry Eyewitness to the Civil War in Washington, D.C.The Death of President Lincoln, April 1865

"[April] 15th. We were awakened this morning by an announcement which almost made our hearts stand still with consternation. The President was shot last night in the Theater."

"Deeply must the country mourn this death for although uncouth & ungainly he was true hearted, magnanimous and kind and in the present crisis ready to follow the such a course with the defeated belligerants as would win them back to their allegiance to the Government and subdue the rebellion in their hearts as well as subjugate their aims."

"The feeling of resentment at the South as instigating in all probability the murder is deep and I fear will entirely replace the feeling of kindness before entertained for the insurgents. The Southerners if they have countenanced the dreadful deed have fatally mistaken the interest of their cause."

[TexConfederate1861]

The fact that slavery was ended, is the ONLY good thing about the Confederacy losing. The fact that the government by the states also ended wasn't good. The fact that Lincoln started a precedence of ruling by Executive Order isn't good. The fact that the invasion and destruction of the South's economy for 20 years or more isn't good either.

Then there is the issue of the South's traditional way of life and culture, and how that was almost destroyed.....

[Casloy]

I have been hearing that for years, and yet there is no documented record of Union troops seeing any, no documents of Southern troops marching with or fighting alongside them. Southern white soldiers were aghast at the idea the North would allow blacks to be soldiers it seems incomprehensible they would then march beside them. Further, there was a huge debate in the South about letting blacks fight for the South and it was rejected. How is it they could be debating something that was already a done deal. There is a lot of data to suggest that Southern army morning reports tended to list anyone in the army or working for the army as being "soldiers" even if they weren't actually in the army. We know a lot of black slaves accompanied the Southern armies to do a lot of the manual labor and some have speculated this may be the error.

[TexConfederate1861]

That argument may hold some water in the Deep South, but Texas had less slaves than most, and yet still contributed 70,000 men to the Confederacy. I had an ancestor that was a cattle rancher, owned no slaves, and still fought.

Obviously, one would think there were more reasons at stake than slavery....

[Casloy]

Then there is the issue of the South's traditional way of life and culture, and how that was almost destroyed.....

I've never quite understood what it was about the life and culture that made it so weak it couldn't self sustain? How exactly did the north destroy a culture? Frankly, I think much of what passes for this nostalgic view of the south is pure myth.

[Casloy]

I don't believe hardly any of the Southerners who fought in the Civil war in any way believed they were flighting to protect slaverey. I don't believe hardly any of the Union troops believed they were fighting to free the slaves. In fact, I would venture a good number of Union troops were not happy with the Emancipation Proclamation and the belief that suddenly the war was about slaves. Slavery was at the heart of the sectionalism that divided the two regions and led to the war, but once war started it became about rights.

[TexConfederate1861]

Do you consider Fredrick Douglass a credible source? I will try to find his account if you wish...