The Mysterious Death of George Patton

Fox News ^ | 4/27/06 | Oliver North

[spanalot]

Was General Patton's death the result of a traffic accident or was he the victim of an assassination plot? (By Stalin)

[spanalot]

" This is like a discussion of what one should/could have done in a Risk game."

I have never heard the Genocide of 50 million characterized as only a game. I guess Duranty came closest when he said of the 10 million killed in Ukraine "You have to break eggs to make omellettes."

And you seem to make light of the fact that it was the Poles and Ukrainians who took the big hit during WWII - not the Russians.


http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html

[spanalot]

"The above post addresses that fantasy particularly wrt to air power. Nuclear weapons were not an issue and would not have been used in Europe without costing America ALL of our allies. "

You seem to know much about modern warfare.

You say that nukes were not an option - did the Japanese know this?

And why would Europe not tolerate atomic bombs on Stalingrad? Chernobyl released hundreds of times more radiation than Hiroshima.

[justshutupandtakeit]

The only thing I make light of is serious proposals of absurdly impossible military projects such as Patton invading the USSR with resources far less than those of other DEFEATED invaders.

Russia was not a seperate nation in 1940 hence its losses were only part of those of the USSR. Naturally, invasions through the western buffer between Germany and Russia means death and destruction.

[x5452]

Actually most of the one's Romanov has mentioned were as often parts of Autro-Hungary, the Polish King, or Lithuania.

[x5452]

Sure you have, Ukranians frequntly engaged in games of genocide, like when a Ukranian and a Pole instrumented the Great Famine.

Pole:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Kosior
Ukranian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlas_Chubar

Trotsky btw was also Ukranian.

[justshutupandtakeit]

We had no more bombs and none would have been available for years in sufficient quantities to make a difference in any invasion of the USSR.

The Japanese did not know we had no more bombs though Stalin surely did.

Chernobyl has no bearing on this issue and was far from an atomic bomb. Europe had just been saved by Soviet blood from the Nazis and would have never accepted an attack upon the USSR. To believe so is just silly.

[Clemenza]

You know that Fulton Sheen once predicted the death of Stalin on "Life is Worth Living." ;-)

[justshutupandtakeit]

BTW stop lying. I never claimed genocide was a "game" I was obviously referring to nitwit projections of what could or should have been done when such projections are based upon no more realistic understandings of world geopolitics than is a Risk game.

[spanalot]

"I was obviously referring to nitwit projections "

Well the only thing that comes to mind is the comment that our nuclear advantage in 1945 was meaningless.

That is absurd - we had the advantage for 4 years until the Russians stole the secret.

It is during those 4 years that America could have crushed communism as we should have crushed Hitler in 1933. It would have saved 50 million lives and prevented the problems in the middle east.

We conquered Germany and Japan and turned them into righteous societies - the same could have been done with Russia.

[spanalot]

"Perhaps the attempt to claim positive thinking for Christianity was a reaction against the atheistic forces of communism. During the Cold War in 1953, Bishop Sheen shocked his audience with a reading of the burial scene from Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, substituting Soviet leaders' names for the characters Caesar, Casius, Marc Antony, and Brutus. Sheen declared "Stalin must one day meet his judgment!" and within a week the dictator suffered a stroke and died. This is the basis of the urban legend that Bishop Sheen predicted the death of Joseph Stalin. "

[spanalot]

"Sure you have, Ukranians frequntly engaged in games of genocide, like when a Ukranian and a Pole instrumented the Great Famine. "

That statement has its basis in vintage Kremlin propaganda and the facts from recently disclosed Soviet archives clearly show that the Genocide was engineered from the Kremlin.

---

"Dr. Martin has recently found documents that clearly show that Moscow interpreted the Ukrainian Party elite's opposition to its
perilously high grain-requisition quotas as a negative consequence of Ukrainization. The tone of Stalin's letters in the summer of 1932 became increasingly extreme: he wrote "I think that we are giving Ukraine much
more than is necessary"; that "the state of affairs in Ukraine is terrible"; that the CP(B)U "is not a Party, but a parliament"; and that "we should do something, otherwise we might lose Ukraine." Kaganovich wrote to
Stalin that the disruption of the grain requisitions was caused by "agents of counter-revolutionary Ukrainian organizations and Petliurites" who were secret collaborators of Pilsudski and world imperialism. As a consequence, in the latter part of 1932 the policy of Ukrainization was rescinded, the Ukrainian Party elite was purged, and secret directives increasing the peasants' already onerous grain deliveries to the state were issued. These punitive acts led millions of deaths and left deep scars on the future development of the Ukrainian nation. "

[Romanov]

Here's the problem with your claims re: Skubnik and him being on "Patton's staff."

Here is the section from the obit you published:
"In another brush with destiny, Mr. Skubik was informed by the Ukrainian underground of a Soviet assassination plot against Gen. George Patton. After his reports on the plot were dismissed, Gen. Patton was killed in an accident involving his staff car and a military truck. Although part of Gen. Patton's security detail, Mr. Skubik was refused permission to investigate the crash. Mr. Skubik's Ukrainian underground contact, Stepan Bandera, was himself assassinated by the KGB in 1959"

You claim Skubnik was ON Patton's staff. If he was ON Patton's staff and really part of his "security detail" it would have been his RESPONSIBILITY to prevent the attack on Patton's life. As the records show, nothing was done to prevent the accident that claimed Gen. Patton. That means that Skubnik, if we are to believe the claims in his obit, FAILED as a member of Patton's security detail. No investigation of the "Accident" would have been necessary had Skubnik performed his duty and actually informed PATTON. It's also quite strange that no real sources can back up Skubnik's claims.

As it stands, if this obit is accurate, Skubnik, a security officer assigned to Patton (your claim), learned about a plot on Patton's life and did nothing to prevent it (if the reports were dismissed, as a security officer on Patton's staff he would have had access to Patton and could have asked for a meeting with the General). Instead it appears he waited until after the incident to reveal the alleged plot and ask to investigate. Hmmmmm. B.S. meter is pegging in the red. Of course, in addition to the KGB ridding themselves of a superior foe, the people who would also gain from allowing the Soviets to actually kill Patton (a reknowned American general, warrior and patriot) would be the Ukrainian underground . Maybe the same Ukrainian underground actually planned and carried out the killing of Patton - after all, they had a contact on Patton's security detail who apparently did nothing to change Patton's routine so he could avoid execution.

Re: Alleged personal attacks - were you not to engage in labeling American servicemen and military veterans "traitors" for questioning Ukrainian's motives and criticizing Ukraine there would be no suspicion of your true loyalties. As it stands, you are putting your former country ahead of your adopted country and that is a violation of the oath of loyalty you took upon gaining citizenship. That an emigre, such as yourself, labels the very veterans who took up arms to oppose the communist threat in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc., as "traitors" and "Kremlin lackeys" speaks volumes about your character. After all, we were defeating the communist enemy the Russians and Ukrainians (etc) were presenting to the world. What was your contribution to this, other than immigrating to America, enjoying the fruits and labors of our forefathers, and then using the freedom of speech that we garauntee to attack honorably serving Americans?

[Romanov]

"That statement has its basis in vintage Kremlin propaganda and the facts from recently disclosed Soviet archives clearly show that the Genocide was engineered from the Kremlin. "

HAHAHAHA NOBODY was or is disputing that the democide was a SOVIET POLICY. And might you tell us Kaganovich's background?!?!?! Be honest now - oh wait, that would show a couple of other ethnicities complicity in the crimes (Actually he was the archetict of it)...

[Romanov]

"Well the only thing that comes to mind is the comment that our nuclear advantage in 1945 was meaningless.

That is absurd - we had the advantage for 4 years until the Russians stole the secret."

Hmm, "We"? Don't you mean "You" because at the time it was "We" you and your ilk were in Ukraine supporting the communist regime.

Furthermore, here's the leader of the efforts to steal our atomic secrets. As a Ukrainian you must be proud:

"Pavel Sudoplatov (1907 - September, 1996) was a member of the intelligence services of the Soviet Union who rose to the rank of major general. He was involved in several famous incidents of the early Cold War, including the assassination of Leon Trotsky, and the Soviet espionage program which obtained information about the atomic bomb from the Manhattan Project.

He was born in Melitopol, in Ukraine, to a Russian mother and a Ukrainian father. After his father died, leaving the family in poverty, Sudoplatov joined the Red Army in 1919, at the age of twelve, fighting in the Russian Civil War. Through work in signals, he became associated with intelligence work, and was eventually promoted to the Secret Political Department of the Ukrainian OGPU in 1927."

See, it'd be much easier and historically and ethically factual if you could admit that it was SOVIET crimes committed during SOVIET communism. It's your choice - you can continue to attempt to repaint it as solely Russian involvement and the history books, archival documents, and facts (including testimony by the Ukrainians who were Soviets) will prove that Ukrainian communists willing and enthusiastically supported the Soviet regime and enjoyed the "fruits" of being in the Slavic brotherhood.

[x5452]

So you're saying that Trotsky wasn't Ukranian?!!? And Vlas? He wasn't either?

[spanalot]

"Hmm, "We"? Don't you mean "You" because at the time it was "We" you and your ilk were in Ukraine "

I was born in the US and have never left.

[Romanov]

Now you've got it all wrong - Gen. Vlasov was actually working from within the Nazi system to defeat them (the new spin from Ukrainian "patriots") Oh - wait, the Nazis imprisoned him just like Bandera, so he must be a saint.

[justshutupandtakeit]

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Your inability to grasp geopolitical realities and the arrangement of power at the end of the war overwhelms your desire to get outside the world of pretence. We are living in a world of REAL situations which do not allow such fanatasies as you labor under to become anything more than that.

We were INCAPABLE of removing Hitler in 1933 just as we were INCAPABLE of invading the USSR for any positive purpose in 1945. Patton's bluster does not change that.

[Romanov]

Then why are your loyalties to the Ukraine over the US? Why are you constantly forwarding the Ukrainian nationalist position at the detriment of US foreign policy?
Why haven't you served your country, instead labeling real US veterans as "Traitors" because they criticize the Ukraine?

[Romanov]

"I was born in the US and have never left."

REALLY? And perhaps you would like to expand on the claim you made on another thread that you had been interrogated by the KGB? According to your claim listed above you have never left the US - if that is the case I for one would like to know how you wound up in the hands of the KGB and how they were able to interrogate you while you were on US soil?!