Posted on 04/27/2006 6:26:15 PM PDT by spanalot
Was General Patton's death the result of a traffic accident or was he the victim of an assassination plot? (By Stalin)
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
So how far from the Kremlin do you have to go till you start finding Russians?
Where and when in Ukraine must you be born to be considered Ukranian?!!?!
"You surely aren't suggesting we should have nuked the Soviet Union?"
We should have FOUGHT the Soviet Union over principle, and they would have given ground over East Germany and Poland, Checkoslovakia, because we HAD the bomb!
Patton was RIGHT.
Here is exactly what Patton said:
"We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore, their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons draw by beaten up old horses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them. Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives. "
The man was brilliant - to have foretold the disasters that Russia would bring to us.
This post is about Patton - what do you think of Pattons observation that the Russians could not be trusted and that millions would die fighting them after WWII?
Don't change the subject, this is quite clearly about who the Soviet Union leaders were, and whether they were exclusivly Russian, or a hodge podge of athiests from many countries and backgrounds, funded by foreigners into a successful takeover of Russia and East Europian countries like Ukraine.
"So you're saying our gov't has checked the allegations and issued a report saying they are not true. Name ONE instance where our gov't has admitted ANY mistake."
Yes, what I am also saying is all of the investigators who have checked these reports are dead set on finding our missing men. The majority of these investigators are active duty military members and don't give a rat's butt if finding our guys embarrasses the government. And furthermore the guys who investigate these claims and continue to investigate these claims are allowed to do so without ANY interference from above. And I should know.
No one is claiming our government is perfect and never "covers anything up" but two things - "cover ups" always come to light and the people that who would have had to been involved were extremely patriotic career military men such as Omar Bradley and they NEVER would have abandoned soldiers to kiss the Soviet butt. Furthermore, the claims of 50,000 or 40,000 are hugely overstated. If you will note, it would only have been possible for the Soviets to have kept 200+ GIs (200+ too many, but nonetheless, a vast difference from the 50K or 40K the conspiracy theorists banty about.
"Why was Mcarthur dismissed? Truman was afraid the General would get us in a war with the Soviets!"
Another misperception and factually incorrect. Two points - 1.) McArthur was dismissed for insurbordination. While a great General, he disobeyed his Commander-in-Chief - something he wouldn't allowed in his own command, 2.) We were already in a war with the Soviets. The US military knew this, the public did not. Soviets from the 64th Fighter Air Corps in MiG-15s under the command of Ukrainian General Kozhedub were flying against our bombers and escort fighters and shooting our guys down (we gave 'em what for too). The Soviets were not even close to committing ground forces.
"R.E. the Cuban Missle crises, Kennedy DID BACK DOWN! We pulled our missles out of Turkey on the QT, which was the original Soviet Demand! We just did it quietly. He traded Turkey for Cuba. But he saved face..... "
Another misperception:
In reality JFK pulled a fast one on his Soviet counterpart and allowed Nikita a face-saving gesture (however, Khruschev was finished after this defeat):
"By the time that the Turkish Jupiters had been installed, the missiles were already largely obsolete and increasingly vulnerable to Soviet attacks. President John F. Kennedy ordered the removal of all Jupiter IRBMs upon taking office in 1961. The Air Force, however, delayed removal and the President was infuriated to learn that they had not yet been removed more than a year later. All Jupiter IRBM's were removed from service by April 1963."
As you can see, JFK had ordered the removal of the Jupiters PRIOR to the Cuban missile crisis. End result: No Soviet nukes 50 miles off of our shores at the "concession" of removing missiles from Turkey that already should have been removed.
And btw, Russian military historians, be they "pro-" West or "anti-" West agree on one thing - we handed them their a** during the Cuban missile crisis.
"And btw, Russian military historians, be they "pro-" West or "anti-" West agree on one thing - we handed them their a** during the Cuban missile crisis. "
And what did the Russians cost us in Korea and Viet Nam?
Are you talking about the forces led by the Ukrainian General Kozhedub?
So how far from the Kremlin do you have to go till you start finding Russians?
How far from your computer moniter do you have to go before you find a Ukrainian nationalist who puts Western Ukraine ahead of his own country?
Here's why this conspiracy theory is complete nonsense:
" the aftermath of the victory in Europe, Patton was disappointed by the Army's refusal to give him another combat command in the Pacific. Unhappy in his role as the military governor of Bavaria and depressed by his belief that he would never fight in another war, Patton's behavior and statements became increasingly erratic.
Whatever the cause, Patton found himself once again in trouble with his superiors and the American people. While speaking to a group of reporters, he compared the Nazis to losers in American political elections. Patton was soon relieved of his Third Army command and transferred to the Fifteenth Army, a paper command preparing a history of the war.
Bitter and intending to soon resign from the Army, in October 1945 General Patton assumed control of the Fifteenth Army. However, on December 9 he suffered serious injuries from an auto accident. Many conspiracy theorists believe that the drivers that were operating the car were ordered to hit him because of the belief that he was going to run for President when he came back to the United States, or because of his quarrels with occupation policies such as the Morgenthau Plan.http://rense.com/general63/patton.htm Patton died on December 21, 1945, and was buried in the American War cemetery in Hamm, Luxembourg."
As you can see, he was already finished in the US Army and posed no threat to the Soviets at that time. The "presidential ambitions" conspiracy theory are pretty similiar to the conspiracy theory surrounding McArthur's dismissal "because Truman knew he was going to run for president" or "Eisenhauer didn't want the competition" etc., etc..
No - we're talking about Patton conquering a pathetic Russian Army . Even the Ukrainian Freedom Fighters were picking off the "Hero" Generals of Stalingrad - something the Germans couldn't do.
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"The UPA fought successful battles in Kostopil', Dubno, Kremjanets' regions and in the Zhytomyr and Berdychiv Forests, especially in the period from February 5 to April 5, 1944. About 850 NKVD-men were killed in these battles; a lot of weapons were captured. General Vatutin, chief-commander of the First Ukrainian Front, was mortally wounded in the ambush that had been organized by the UPA detachment. "
isn't there a law against linking to those wackos?
I think they had a piece on how Kirov was abducted by aliens.
"No - we're talking about Patton conquering a pathetic Russian Army . Even the Ukrainian Freedom Fighters were picking off the "Hero" Generals of Stalingrad - something the Germans couldn't do.
---
"The UPA fought successful battles in Kostopil', Dubno, Kremjanets' regions and in the Zhytomyr and Berdychiv Forests, especially in the period from February 5 to April 5, 1944. About 850 NKVD-men were killed in these battles; a lot of weapons were captured. General Vatutin, chief-commander of the First Ukrainian Front, was mortally wounded in the ambush that had been organized by the UPA detachment. "
You crack me up - just yesterday on this thread you were singing the praises of the Ukrainian Front - until you were informed it was a Russian-led Soviet force.
There was no Russian Army in 1945. The Russian Army ceased to exist in 1917. Perhaps you meant the Soviet Army - an army whose general officer corps was made up of a majority of Russian AND Ukrainian officers.
But you also forget a few points when you engage in this fantasy (The United States continuing the war to fight the Soviets)
1.) Our logistics lines were long
2.) We had the responsibility of rebuilding and occupying Germany - a drain in manpower.
3.) Our forces were draft based and more than ready to go home. The European theater troops dreaded the anticipated move to the Pacific theater because it prolonged their military service and put them in death's sights again.
4.) An invading force always has a tougher road to haul - partisans would have taken up arms again. The Soviets were shrewed enough to play up the "fatherland" aspect of the fighting - you rarely see any WWII-era Soviet posters asking the people to fight for the Communist Party
5.) We didn't have enough troops
6.) We would have had to fight through Eastern Europe
7.) Our main Allies that still had standing armies would not have joined us.
8.) US commanders actually care about the rate of loss in their units - something the Soviets didn't care a whit about (see: 10th NKVD motorized rifle regiment) and they would have thrown person after person after person after person after person on us.
9.) The UPA was fighting a partisan war (and really upset that they lost their Nazi support). As I recall they lost in the end.
Here is exactly what Patton said - I think his estimation of our success trumps your pessimistic view of the US capabilities ( and did I mention we HAD THE BOMB OR TWO:
"We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore, their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons draw by beaten up old horses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them. Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives. "
The man was brilliant - to have foretold the disasters that Russia would bring to us.
"You crack me up - just yesterday on this thread you were singing the praises of the Ukrainian Front - until you were informed it was a Russian-led Soviet force. "
Of course they were Russian led - the Ukrainian foot soldiers were forced into battle unarmed at the point of an NKVD gun. They were given 2 or 3 rounds and told to pick up a weapon from any one killed in front of them.
You make my point for me. Truman was afaid of an escalation to Nuclear war.. McArthur was NOT.
Footsoldiers? Trotsky was a footsoldier now??!
"Of course they were Russian led - the Ukrainian foot soldiers were forced into battle unarmed at the point of an NKVD gun. They were given 2 or 3 rounds and told to pick up a weapon from any one killed in front of them."
Once again you prove you're a Ukrainian nationalist who disregards the truth. The unarmed conscripts were Russian, Chukchi, Mari, Nantsy, Mongol, Ukrainian, Pole, Georgian, Armenian, Azeri, Tadjik, Turkmen, Buryat, etc., etc., etc.
Your racial hatred allows you to totally ignore the sacrifices of these men (and women) all in order to place too much of a "honor" tag on your Ukrainians. None of these men and women were fighting to preserve the Soviet Union - they were doing so to preserve their families and their homeland. The Soviets knew that - hence the NKVD "rear action" squads.
And once again, can you tell me more about General Kozhedub - the Ukrainian who was the commander of the 64th Fighter Aviation Corps - the Soviet Union that killed American F-80, F-86, and B-29, B-26 crews?
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