Posted on 10/13/2007 8:34:15 AM PDT by do the dhue
Gleen Beck had Pastor John Hagee on his show last night. They discussed the end times. I think this was one of the best interviews I have seen in a long time. It was very interesting. Did anyone see it? Here is the transscript
(Excerpt) Read more at transcripts.cnn.com ...
You like Jakes? I feel something when I see him on TV.
Hunter supports the massive, intrusive RealID act. I hope you’ll be happy when you can’t even walk into a government building without your chip.
We are told in Ephesians that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Sounds like the ‘tribulation’ is deception, worshiping a ‘christ’ out of season.
Well, I’m not SDA, however, there are some things I agree with them on. And there are other groups who believe the same.
Tim Warner, for instance. Now a post-tribber, but brought up in the Plymouth Brethren, the foremost pretrib group in the world. Check out his website:
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/
Lots of good stuff on post-trib there.
Muhammad was a false prophet but not a fake prophet. I'm becoming more and more convinced we'll see him again. Maybe with a wound on his head.
So we've established that the Church is not mentioned in Scripture as being in the Tribulation. That would be very strange on the part of God except there is no need to address something that doesn't exist. If I, as a "pre-tribber" have to offer proof that the church will not be on earth during the Tribulation that would be it, but something tells me that that still wouldn't be enough for you.
Since you are the one who believes that the Rapture is the same event as the Second Coming of Christ to earth to set up His millennial kingdom which does not take place until after the seven-year Tribulation, I believe the burden is on you, not me, to explain the fact that not only is the Church not mentioned anywhere in Scripture as being part of the Tribulation, but the Church is indeed involved in events in Heaven that take place while the Tribulation is happening.
How, for example, does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, which is described below as taking place in heaven for the "wife" who has "made herself ready"; aka the Bride of Christ, aka the Church, happen if there is no Rapture before the Tribulation? How do you reconcile your denial of that Scripture?
1 After these things I heard* a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both F100 small and great!" 6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! F101 For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:1; 19:5-8)
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place in Heaven while the Tribulation is occurring on earth. If the wife of Christ, the Church, is on earth suffering the judgments of God, then how is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb supposed to take place?
You see, sasportas, you simply cannot reconcile your belief in a posttrib Rapture with Scripture. It's that simple, and no amount of denial and twisting will change that fact.
If you have trusted Christ as your Savior, and you want to believe, for whatever reason, that you will be here during the Tribulation to go through the judgment that the haters of God will go through, be my guest.
You simply will not ever convince me that Christians will be here for the Tribulation. There is just too much Scripture that states otherwise. But if it makes you feel good to think you'll be here for that hellish time, go right ahead.
And by the way- I don't have any burden to prove anything. Jesus Christ already did it for me.
Wow! Thanks for posting! I had every intention of watching but something else came up. I appreciate the transcript.
This thread is separating the men from the boys
Go to You Tube and look up his speech at AIPAC. It’s in several parts.
I had hoped you wouldn’t take me wrong in saying that pretribbers are the ones who have the burden of proof. I see you have. Sorry.
I didn’t think my explanation was anything to get upset over.
You said something that I hear a lot, i.e. that post-tribbers want to go through the “hellish” (your words) tribulation. I have no desire whatsoever to have to endure these things. But what you don’t understand is it is not what I want - it is what the word of God really says.
Have you stopped to think that that might be what is precisely what is wrong with the pretrib view? They do NOT WANT to have to face these things, therefore they read into the scripture what they want. Not a good thing.
As to your other points, I can answer them, but since I find it easier to refer you to the website I mentioned in my post #245, I refer you there...if you care to go. It is one of the best on the web, in my opinion.
In the bible, enemies of Israel will not go unpunished. If we stand against Israel, we will face His wrath.
Exactly! GOD called out Noah before judgment upon the world. GOD called out the nation of Israel out of Egypt as well. Israel was not harmed. Several more things point to pretrib rapture. One is the Hebrew wedding tradition meaning the first and last trumpet blast not to be confused with those in Revelations. The parable of the 10 virgins also points to it. The Book of Revelations points to it Revelation ch 4 points to it also as the Twenty Four Elders are clothed in white and crowns on their head and seated meaning they have passed before believers judgment and this occurs before the Tribulation even begins.
next point is once the agreement is signed between Israel and the anti-christ you can count the literal days till Christ Second Coming. Christ has returned to earth at least twice since his death but their is a significant difference between returning and Second Coming. The return for the Bride {Believers} will be the Last or Second Trumpet announcing Bring forth the Bride as commanded by The Father of the Groom as provision has been made and the home is ready and the Father tells his Son the Groom Bring forth the Bride.
When the church {believers} is called out to the world as we know it people left here still will not know the time of the Second Coming because they did not believe.
Don't be too harsh. There are some legitimate views (I don't agree with) which hold we are already in the tribulation. I get lost in the "pre-Mil", "amill", Pre-trib amill", "Preterist", "Historicist"...blah, blah, mishmash and forget which is which but this view holds the four horses represent four overlapping periods of Church history, just as the 7 Churches do. The white horse is Christ ushering in the Church age. The red horse ushered in the age of war and the world has been in constant war since. The black horse is the period of famine maybe beginning with the mass starvation of Africa, China, Russia and Indochina beginning in say mid 18th Century. The Pale horse is the final age and is the worst (the others have all been continuing and still continue). We may be in the day of the Pale horse under this view, holding it started with the use of atomic weapons.
I don't buy a bit of this but they can make a biblical argument. Under this view the Church is obviously suffering along with everyone else in the tribulation so there is no rapture. Thus there is an eschatology which can rationally exclude a rapture.
For me, too many Pastors and Theologians I respect very much, men who are filled with spirit and know Greek and do their own exegesis straight from the Greek text, come to totally opposite scenarios in their view of eschatology. Preterism has made a big comeback (especially in the academic community) and it's the theory I least agree with. When that many people at the top, go in that many directions, I'm not prepared to say anyone has a handle on it. I take it all in, put it in my back pocket and see how things come along.
I could be wrong, but I don’t believe the mark of the beast is a micro-chip or anything like that. I believe it is what is in your heart and mind(forehead) and what your actions reveal(right hand).
bump
Thanks! I’ll look into that.
So what was usual regarding marrying and giving in marriage in the days of Noe (Noah)? It is the reason for the flood?
If you believe the scriptures , God clearly states that the only way to salvation is thru belief in Christ. That is not me judging, it is God’s Word. The Church did not replace God’s covenants with Israel as you now understand. Replacement theology is the result of flawed theological systems. Yet, it is clear that the Jews or anyone else for that matter cannot be saved unless they have faith in Christ as their Savior.
This has nothing to do with my judging anyones salvation, it is clearly stated in scripture.
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