Posted on 08/25/2008 7:42:37 PM PDT by neverdem
On Thursday, Philip Berg filed a temporary restraining order in federal court to bar Obama from running for president, claiming the Democratic candidate was actually born in Africa. "We really don't believe he was born in Hawaii," Berg said. "We think he was born in Kenya." ...Berg's suit claims the senator's grandmother, brother and sister, who live in Kenya, believe they were present during Obama's birth in the African country... [Barack Hussein Obama] grew up in Hawaii with his mother and for a few years in Indonesia after Dunham married an Indonesian man, Lolo Soetoro. Also, Obama lived with his maternal grandparents in Hawaii. "If he was born in Hawaii, and he was adopted in Indonesia by Lolo Soetoro, (Obama) would lose his citizenship," Berg said.
I hear you my very dear friend.
I will reply tomorrow. I just cannot do it sooner.
As early as it is, I am off to bed. I need some good rest/sleep.
My best regards.
Thanks, no reply really needed unless I’ve made an error. Just pinged to as an FYI because I thought this thread might be of interest to you.
Sleep well, it’s gonna be one hell of a ride...
I’m still here trying to ansewer a question by one of our FReeper friends, WoofDog123.
“I thought this thread might be of interest to you.”
Absolutely. You don’t know how. Your threads are always of great interest to me.
I am sorry, null and void, I am falling asleep over my keyboard.
Please never count me out. It is just a one time thing.
“Good night, sweet Prince, And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.” Hamlet
The "original" KOS faked CLB (also on Obama's "fight the smears" site) says Aug. 4, as does the one on Fact Check.org.
The Governor of California is a Citizen of the United States, but he's a naturalized citizne, born in IIRC, Austria of Austrian parents. He's not natural born.
Hillary Clinton, OTOH, is a also a citizen, but she was born in Illinois and thus is a natural born citizen.
It gets a little gray around the edges when one is talking about folks, like "Null and Void" who were born overseas, but both of whose parents were US Citizens, and in his case at least one of which was serving in the US Military at the time. That sort of Gray Area, also applies to John McCain, since he was born while his father was stationed at Coco Solo naval base in the Panama canal zone. Howeve his birth certificate, which he has released, shows that he was born in Colon Panama, which is adjacent to that now closed US Navy facility. (However there is evidence, and surely his mother knows for certain, that he was nonetheless actually born on the Naval base, possibly in their quarters. (Home births were not tha unusual in the late 1930s)
Well, no. Statutes cannot define Constiutional terms. The reason should be obvious if you think about it for a bit.
What counts is what was meant by "natural born citizen" at the time the Constitution was written and ratified.
If you go by that, then one's father would need to have been a citizen, and married to ones mother, if one were born outside of US territory.
Except that the Constitution also says(14th amendment) that all persons born in the US are citizens, presumably at birth and thus they are presumably natural born citizens. But that doesn't exclude other possibilties for qualifying as "natural born", according to the original understanding of the term.
Overturning the results of an election hasn't deterred judges and justices before, why start now.
Of course that would presumably mean Joe Biden would become President, but at least the Constitution would have been upheld, and I could (reluctantly) live with that.
And if you get above about 60,000 feet, it's indigo or black all the time. With little mostly white flecks.
The US *allows* dual citizenship, but doesn't recognize it. As far as US law is concerned, you are a US Citizen or you are not. But they do allow for it under some circumstances. They certainly don't encourage it. Divided loyalties.
"Divided loyalties" is what the requirement to be a natural born citizen is all about in the first place. After all, who cares if some baby is adopted from Uzebekistan, when she is only a few months old, and never knows anything but being an American.
But that is not the case with Barry. He was clearly old enough to remember being Indonesian, and seems to identify with being African, more than being American. Not someone I want as the Commander in Chief. Heck not someone I want as a fuel handler on an air base in the interior of Alaska.
I do believe there is an "OR" in there. :)
Doesn't matter, "agencies" don't get to define what the Constitution means, nor to define terms contained in it. The reason is obvious. As one example, they could define "arms" to only mean "upper limbs" and nullify the Second Amendment. Or define that talking within 1 mile of a government facility is not "speech". ( of course the opposite has occurred, and "dancing naked" and other "forms of expression" has been defined as "speech".)
Other than as modified by the 14th amendment, the term "natural born citizen" must be read to mean what it meant at the time the Constitution was adopted. (Although the 14th amendment concept was pretty much incorporated, for white people at least, in the founding era understanding, it just wasn't limited to that)
United States law on the issue dates to 1790 and specifically confers natural born citizen status on the child of 2 U.S. citizens who happen to be abroad when the child comes.
Interesting point, the law that repealed the 1790 law utterly drops natural born for chillins born to American citizens born abroad.
They are described only as ‘citizens’ no longer as ‘natural born citizens’...
http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=538
;)
You are parsing words - the 1795 law clearly confers citizenship at birth. There is no naturalization process required.
Do you seriously think that the founders (or any subsequent legislators) for one second intended that the children of citizens serving their country abroad (military, foreign service, etc.) or even of those traveling abroad for pleasure would lose their rights as natural born citizens?
As for the 1795 law (and all subsequent laws) - most legal scholars would agree, and I would venture a substantial wager that SCOTUS would agree as well - if and when the rights of citizenship are conferred at birth - it meets the definition of natural born. The Constitution discusses 2 ‘classifications’ of citizenship - natural born and naturalized - in any case where naturalization is not required - that citizen is clearly natural born.
...
And from the depths of my twisted mind:
I would love to see Obama address this and tell us again how much he honors and respects the military. Then he can make a specific address to the parents who are active duty and the children of our current military members and say that if these cutelittle kids were born at Ramstein, or Yokosuka, or Holy Loch - or any other military facility outside the States - that you wonderful smart children live in the land of opportunity and that you can be anything you want to be if you work hard enough - except of course President. Imagine that - you can’t be president BECAUSE your daddy or mommy served this wonderful country.
- I’m waiting - I will schedule my time around the speech of Mr. Constitutional Law professor who thinks he knows more than Clarence Thomas and believed the DC gun ban to be constitutional - when he decides to address this and explain to us peons how and why Senator McCain should be disqualified - I will be watching.
I hate this friggin’ Soetoro guy so much that I dont give a @#$% if the both of these dumbasses are kicked out and Hildabeast gets the WH by default.
She will be the only one who deserves it if she plays this card right and I am considering not even voting for the old coot if he dooesn’’t mention this before the election.
That’s it...bottom line:No Stones?...No Vote
To quote Shrillary herself....I am Siiick and Tiiired of Supporting These Jerkoffs Who Won’t Stand Up Against This Traitor Barack-Barry-Hussein-Soetoro-Obama. We Presidential Nominee No Mattter Who It Is.
Screw you McCain, you LOST me at “Listen my friends...”...and that’s it! Can’t you let one damn war story pass while you give 5 seconds of lip service to the fact you opponent is hiding something? I am still ashamed you are the nominee and refuse to capitulate any longer.
I was really hoping he’d grow a pair but there’s just not enough testosterone flowing through his blood anymore.
If Captain McCain came this far, after this long, just to take the high road through the GE, well he can kiss my ase.
All I want to hear is this:
“My Friends, the congress and liberal media put me through
quite a process concerning the fact that I was born at a Naval Base in the Panama Canal Zone. I was born while my father, who went on to become a 4-star Admiral was stationed overseas. Like his father before him, my Grandfather, also a 4-star admiral served overseas with pride, yet the Democrats of this country dared to say I was not American. Make no mention of the fact..(vietnam)...and So, my FRiends I am not about to let this question in a matter as important as the Presidency, where 350 million lives are at stake linger any further.
“Senator Obama: Who IS Barry Soetoro??”...6 words and it’s his.
John McCain was born at Coco Solo Naval Air Station in the Panama Canal Zone to naval officer John S. McCain, Jr. (1911–1981) and Roberta (Wright) McCain (b. 1912).[3] At that time, the Panama Canal was under American control.
McCain has Scots-Irish and English ancestry.[4] His father and his paternal grandfather both became four-star United States Navy admirals.[5] His family, including his older sister Sandy and younger brother Joe,[3] followed his father to various naval postings in the United States and the Pacific.[6] Altogether, he attended about 20 schools.[7]
(from that far right site-wikipedia)
Negotiations toward a new settlement began in 1974, and resulted in the Torrijos-Carter Treaties. Signed by President of the United States Jimmy Carter and Omar Torrijos of Panama on September 7, 1977, this set in motion the process of handing the canal over to Panamanian control for free as long as Panama signed a treaty guaranteeing the permanent neutrality of the canal (Neutrality Treaty) and allowed the U.S. to come back anytime. Though controversial within the U.S., the treaty led to full Panamanian control effective at noon on December 31, 1999, and control of the canal was handed over to the Panama Canal Authority (ACP).
(Irony)
Before this handover, the government of Panama held an international bid to negotiate a 25-year contract for operation of the canal’s container shipping ports, which was won by the firm Hutchison Whampoa, a Hong Kong-based shipping concern whose owner, Li Ka Shing, is the wealthiest man in China.
(Commie Loving Libs)
*The person that saves us from Obama deserves to win, no matter who they may be. B. Hussein is a puppet to Congress, the true Manchurian, and is at the steps of the WH.*
Can’t wait for Ludascrous and SnoopDog to show up to smoke a fatty Blunt in the Lincoln Bedroom...for a fee of course:
“Yo Playa, holla at your boy...hahhaaah, yeah boy, you know it! It’s like this yo, on the real tip...Big Ups to the Pimp who runs this Whitey’s House...Hizzell for Shizzell my Nizzell
right the US does but indonesia does not. so to be a citizen of indonesia you MUST give up your US citizenship which makes barry inelligible. Kenya is the same way (for the record)
“Ahhh. Now we’re getting into the territory of whether illegal alien’s children should be granted citizenship.
In a word “no”.
Agreed. But that is the law and we have to live with it. (At least until it is repealed, if it ever is)”
I didn’t say it was right.
“Special dispensation is made for Cuban exiles, and the argument can be made that they ARE U.S. Citizens.
Ummmm, not quite. With dry feet, they cannot be deported back to Cuba. They still need to become naturalized to be US citizens. “
The “with dry feet” IS the special dispensation, and if their child is born in the U.S. then the child is considered a U.S. Citizen (unless the exiles decide to go back).
“Besides, why should Cubans be so special, hmmmm?”
Why should they? Because the U.S. government says they should be, and until we change THAT rule, we have to live with it.
“You asked me to define “natural born” (citizen), and I told you how I would define it.
Yes. But you never actually did define it except to give a circular definition, What you said boils down to: natural born means natural born. “
Well, in all honesty, EVERY definition is “circular”. The presumption that readers know the definitions of certain words in the definition is made. in MY simplified definition “Natural born citizen” means: offspring of two people born in the U.S. (don’t make me write about it’s possessions and military installations world-wide, your smarter than you’re making out to be).
“Except by half a dozen different government agencies. Immigration has rules about citizenship, DOD adopts those same rules, the State Department probably has their own rules. In them, they probably don’t have a glossary, but they have rules governing it.
Muddying the issue by deliberately confounding the rules for “citizenship” with being “natural born” doesn’t help.”
So what. If you don’t follow the rules, you don’t get to play.
“Yeah, especially for vaccuous twits.
Hey, you were the one that quoted it as if it was applicable in this election cycle, you even emphasized it as if it was crucially important today. “
Look, you obviously DIDN’T read the post I made where I inserted the whole paragraph from the Constitution. He asked about the difference between “Natural born citizen” and “citizen of the United States”. The citizen of the United States part was only about them that drew up the Constitution. I cleared that up for him. It IS CRUCIALLY important today, in that it doesn’t APPLY today.
Consequences are that the only part of that paragraph is “Natural born citizen”. The next phrase was asked about, but he didn’t quote the complete phrase. You similarly did the same thing, and I didn’t feel like typing the whole damn thing again.
If you want to carry on all assinine and stuff, that’s up to you.
If you are going to make judgments about what YOU think I did and did not do, please have your facts straight.
“I’m sorry you think that’s what that means.
The whole point is that I DO NOT know what “natural born” means, and neither do you. If you did, you could give an actual definition, rather than parroting a sentence that contains the phrase without actually defining it. “
I just did, up above. I am giving you MY definition of “natural born CITIZEN” (which if I’d like to berate you about, similar to the comments you made to me, I would be all over you for leaving off the word citizen, which is vitally important to the original question).
Besides, let’s see YOU define the word “IS” without using the word “IS”.
“I think the Founding Fathers intended that any future president be UNQUESTIONABLY an American, first, foremost, unambiguously and without any hint of divided loyalties.”
Sure, can you define American? So keeping with the spirit of YOUR posts, we can safely assume that Canadians, Mexicans, Columbians, Somoans, Brazilians, and a whole host of other “-ians”, can become President?
“The current debate is jus soli vs jus sanguinis. Does it suffice to be born on American Soil, or be born from American Blood? “
Define American blood. (We’ll give you a pass on “American” vs “Citizen of the U.S.” for this one.)
“If I got a vote, a president would need BOTH. “
If I got a vote, the Constitution would apply, but we would simply define “natural born citizen” as written in the Constitution.
“Yes, that would mean a good and loyal man would not qualify. “
Find one that wants to be a politician. Well, except me of course, but I fear the power might corrupt me.
“Yes, it might mean a total cur would.”
Which SHOULD never make it past the primary.
“The Founding Fathers hoped the voters would stop the latter. Frankly, having seen modern voters, I’m not so sure.”
I used to be an opponent of term limits. I defended it loudly with “aren’t YOU smart enough to vote a bad politician out of office”...it was usually met with murmuring and grumbling. Twenty years later, I’ve change my opinion about term limits, and realized the murmuring and grumbling was them saying “no” (obviously). For example, look at ol’ Chappaquidick Ted. In public service his whole life, and deigns to call himself “leader”.
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