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1491
The Atlantic ^ | 4-2-2002 | Charles C. Mann

Posted on 04/03/2002 2:41:45 PM PST by blam

1491

Before it became the New World, the Western Hemisphere was vastly more populous and sophisticated than has been thought—an altogether more salubrious place to live at the time than, say, Europe. New evidence of both the extent of the population and its agricultural advancement leads to a remarkable conjecture: the Amazon rain forest may be largely a human artifact

by Charles C. Mann

(click on the url to read the rest of the article)(Good Read)


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1491; archaeology; clashofcivilizatio; enviralists; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; thetruthcomesout
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1 posted on 04/03/2002 2:41:45 PM PST by blam
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Bump for an interesting (anti-environmentalist at one point) article.
2 posted on 04/03/2002 2:45:18 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: RightWhale;farmfriend;LostTribe;sawsalimb;ValerieUSA
Click here for link to article
3 posted on 04/03/2002 2:49:51 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Bumpity...
4 posted on 04/03/2002 2:56:33 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: blam
The Spaniards of the 15th century weren't exactly what I would term "model Christians", far from it. But they were honestly shocked, horrified and outraged at the sight of obvious human sacrifices and, dare I say it, cannabilism practiced by the peoples of the Western Hemisphere.

Any attempt to equate THAT so called native civilization with ours today sickens me.

5 posted on 04/03/2002 2:59:05 PM PST by goody2shooz
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To: blam
Dang, those Amazon rain-forests sure look just like Amazon jungles to me.

Sorta like the Native Americans look just like American Indians to an old Oklahoman.

6 posted on 04/03/2002 2:59:11 PM PST by Ole Okie
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To: blam

If they want to return as much of the landscape as possible to its 1491 state, they will have to find it within themselves to create the world's largest garden.

Fantastic Read Thanx

7 posted on 04/03/2002 3:00:34 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: blam
the Amazon rain forest may be largely a human artifact

So then the Amazon rain forest, being a human creation for human use, may be exploited for current human needs, correct?

8 posted on 04/03/2002 3:04:23 PM PST by Map Kernow
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To: goody2shooz
I know alot of good decent alaska natives; but have you ever been to a bush village or on a reservation? They sure did a 180 after 1492.
9 posted on 04/03/2002 3:04:41 PM PST by Eska
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To: blam
Some of the claims in the article appear highly unlikely. I think they overestimate population in the Americas pre 1492 by at least a factor of two.
10 posted on 04/03/2002 3:04:48 PM PST by spqrzilla9
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To: Ole Okie
Dang, those Amazon rain-forests sure look just like Amazon jungles to me.

You sound like one of those un-reconstructed paleo-cons who call wet lands swamps.

You've got company.

11 posted on 04/03/2002 3:04:58 PM PST by rightofrush
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To: blam;Carry_Okie;forester;SierraWasp;B4Ranch;sasquatch
As the University of Wisconsin historian William Cronon has written, restoring this long-ago, putatively natural state is, in the view of environmentalists, a task that society is morally bound to undertake. Yet if the new view is correct and the work of humankind was pervasive, where does that leave efforts to restore nature?

Long but an interesting read. This should interest you Mark as it seems to support your ideas.

12 posted on 04/03/2002 3:11:29 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: blam
Pinging others who might find this interesting. If you like this article, you will like this.
13 posted on 04/03/2002 3:13:19 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
Have you ever read the Wilderness Act of 1964 Not one word about the United Nations in the whole damn thing!
14 posted on 04/03/2002 3:37:59 PM PST by B4Ranch
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To: blam
Quite a story.
15 posted on 04/03/2002 3:42:55 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: blam
I loved the article.

Not only did it point out that the "pristine" wilderness never existed since the Indians were farmers, but it pointed out that they died of disease, not deliberate genocide.

However, the comment of historians that they would have rather been an Indian than a European in 1491 sounds true. Indian MEN had high status. Women, on the other hand, in many tribes were little more than chattel. Better to be a European woman who had some rights.

16 posted on 04/03/2002 3:56:54 PM PST by LadyDoc
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To: blam
Thanks for the post and the link. This was a fascinating article from a historical, anthropological and epidemicological view.

I'm going to post the link on some History and Archy forums I frequent to see what the consensus of opinion is.

From my initial read, I found this article was pretty much devoid of PC, environmentalist or socialist propaganda. There are many interpretations of data collected over centuries, including the eyewitness accounts from history. It seems to assume that the accounts by de Soto, la Salle and others were correct - and tries to figure out why the changes took place.

17 posted on 04/03/2002 4:06:51 PM PST by RandyRep
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To: blam
Thanks for the bump. Printed it (17 pages) out for study.
18 posted on 04/03/2002 4:45:32 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: *Clash of Civilizatio
Indexing.
19 posted on 04/03/2002 4:54:31 PM PST by denydenydeny
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To: B4Ranch
I will read that. I noticed the Forest Service emblem on the page. My dad worked for the Forest Service. He just told me this weekend that the federal government owns 72% of the land in California. I was shocked that it was that high. I knew it was over 50%.
20 posted on 04/03/2002 5:21:01 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: RandyRep
"There are many interpretations of data collected over centuries, including the eyewitness accounts from history. It seems to assume that the accounts by de Soto, la Salle and others were correct - and tries to figure out why the changes took place."

I pretty much agree with the article and also the large number of people claimed. I've seen an aerial (partial) view of this Amazon region and the channels and 'mounds' go on for hundreds and hundreds of miles. One person (forgot who, when asked) said that it would have taken 50-100 million people (also forgot the time frame) to 'build' all that was visible in this Amazon region. I believe that the South American civilizations is/are the source of the legends of Atlantis. Solon was told (by the Egyptian high priests) that powers across the Atlantic conquered all the countries in the Mediterranean area in prehistoric times. That would have taken a very large population base to accomplish. (If true?)

21 posted on 04/03/2002 5:28:33 PM PST by blam
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To: *Enviralists;*editor-surveyor
Check the Bump List folders for articles related to and descriptions of the above topic(s) or for other topics of interest.
22 posted on 04/03/2002 5:28:42 PM PST by Free the USA
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To: farmfriend
"I was shocked that it was that high. I knew it was over 50%."

I think Nevada is in the 80% range owned by the federal government.

23 posted on 04/03/2002 5:36:13 PM PST by blam
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To: denydenydeny
Amazing. After reading the entire article the most profound thought I am left with is that the scientists never agree and each can build a convincing case for anything. So what do we know now? The entire article is all speculation.
24 posted on 04/03/2002 6:00:21 PM PST by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: blam
Europeans, Indians said, were physically weak, sexually untrustworthy, atrociously ugly, and just plain dirty.

Still true of today's euro-peons

civilization was so wonderful, why were its inhabitants leaving?

True!

ecologists' claims about terrible Amazonian land were based on very little data.

True too. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Great article. Too much to comment on all of it.

25 posted on 04/03/2002 6:02:33 PM PST by watcher1
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To: blam
There are aspects of this story that disturb me greatly. The first is the assumption of total isolation of the Americas from Europe. This is false. There are numerous accounts and artifacts documenting pre-Columbian European trade with the Americas by Phoenicians, Hebrews, Druids, and Norsemen. With all those visits, there was (according to this theory)not one major introduction of a contagious virus. With cocaine and tobacco samples in Egypt, fired brick in Central America, Phoenician writing in New Mexico, and Druid relics in Kentucky and Minnesota (if memory serves) how is such "isolation" possible? If there wasn't isolation, this theory loses a central premise.
26 posted on 04/03/2002 7:57:04 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: blam
bttt
27 posted on 04/03/2002 9:05:35 PM PST by Free the USA
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To: Carry_Okie
I agree with you somewhat on the contagion issue. My question is, if the population wasn't high, as has been traditionally assumed, who where they trading with?
28 posted on 04/03/2002 9:19:56 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: watcher1
Europeans, Indians said, were physically weak, sexually untrustworthy, atrociously ugly, and just plain dirty. Still true of today's euro-peons

The weak would never have survived the voyage. As for the others (untrustworthy, ugly, dirty)...a case of the pot calling the kettle black? And besides, the type of men who sailed to the New World were not exactly the Beau Brummel or Oscar Wilde type, now where they?

...civilization was so wonderful, why were its inhabitants leaving? True!

Nonsense. They weren't leaving civilization. If they were, they would have burned their boats, etc. determined never to return.

29 posted on 04/03/2002 11:37:50 PM PST by yankeedame
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To: farmfriend;blam
I think the truth is simply more complex than to say that a few diseased Europeans ignorantly wiped them out. The pig theory is interesting but certainly doesn't apply to South America. That there was contagion is historically true as the celebrated example of the Aztecs remids us. Although the theory that South America had an enormous population, shows some evidence, the indications are that most of these people were gone long before Columbus. My guess is that the Americas have had several waves from various directions including the negroid peoples who were wiped out by the Mongolian invasion over the Bering ice bridge only 10,000 years ago or so. Then there's Kenneweck. But that certainly blows the "isolation from dirty Europeans" theory, although that's surely one way to raise research money.

It's going to take a long time (and many grants) to piece this together.

30 posted on 04/04/2002 5:48:21 AM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie
"There are aspects of this story that disturb me greatly. The first is the assumption of total isolation of the Americas from Europe. This is false. There are numerous accounts and artifacts documenting pre-Columbian European trade with the Americas by Phoenicians, Hebrews, Druids, and Norsemen. With all those visits, there was (according to this theory)not one major introduction of a contagious virus. With cocaine and tobacco samples in Egypt, fired brick in Central America, Phoenician writing in New Mexico, and Druid relics in Kentucky and Minnesota (if memory serves) how is such "isolation" possible? If there wasn't isolation, this theory loses a central premise."

I agree with you 100%, however, I also (by and large) agree with the premise of the article. I went to sleep last night looking for an answer, without success. I'm baffled!!(Catastrophies local and worldwide do not even get a mention)

31 posted on 04/04/2002 11:04:00 AM PST by blam
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To: farmfriend
who where they trading with?

Maybe the Preposition tribe, in old England.

32 posted on 04/04/2002 11:16:42 AM PST by ASA Vet
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To: Carry_Okie
Going Into The Water: A Survey Of Impact Events And The Coastal People Of Southeast North America, The Caribbean And Central America.
33 posted on 04/04/2002 11:17:35 AM PST by blam
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To: blam;farmfriend
See my reply in #30. There are several problems with the batch of "scientists" doing this research. I call them that because this type of work necessarily involves a degree of projected subjectivity in order to evoke the construction of hypotheses. It is also distorted by the nature of its funding. There is also cut-throat competition involved. Finally, most of the people doing that work are too specialized in their education and thus easily duped.

As far as the pre-Columbian populations are concerned and why they disappeared, there may well be some clues to be found in that city that was just found submerged off the coast of Cuba. I am especially hopeful for what may be found there.

I hadn't yet commented on the final third of the article, which was outstanding. Thanks for posting it. The theme it suggested fits exactly my sense of history and my understanding of ecology. Environmental preservation will give us a world dominated by pest species. Taking care of nature is not easy and it certainly isn't free. Running it by government for the benefit of resource corporations will be disastrous. In that respect, its ethic fits exactly the themes and purpose of my book. I may contact Atlantic Monthly to see if they want to do a review.

34 posted on 04/04/2002 11:20:08 AM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: blam
Going Into The Water: A Survey Of Impact Events And The Coastal People Of Southeast North America, The Caribbean And Central America.

LOL! Great minds.

35 posted on 04/04/2002 11:21:18 AM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: ASA Vet
Maybe the Preposition tribe, in old England.

Smart @$$.

36 posted on 04/04/2002 11:25:54 AM PST by farmfriend
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To: ASA Vet
What can I say, I'm a product of the California Public Educational System.
37 posted on 04/04/2002 11:29:22 AM PST by farmfriend
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To: Carry_Okie
link to thread about the underwater City off Cuba
38 posted on 04/04/2002 11:31:23 AM PST by ASA Vet
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To: Carry_Okie
"In that respect, its ethic fits exactly the themes and purpose of my book."

That's you? You wrote that book? I'm complimented to be in such company. (BTW, I spent many days ..1966-1973..in the Santa Cruz/Scotts Valley area...I'm one of the original Silicon Valley boys.) Small world.

39 posted on 04/04/2002 11:35:44 AM PST by blam
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To: Carry_Okie
link to another thread regarding the offshore Cuban city
40 posted on 04/04/2002 11:38:17 AM PST by ASA Vet
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To: farmfriend
Who? Me? ;>)
41 posted on 04/04/2002 11:40:37 AM PST by ASA Vet
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To: ASA Vet
"link to thread about the underwater City off Cuba"

Thanks for the link. There is a more recent (nothing new really) update posted here about a week ago. I worry that this is being over hyped and will turn out to be a 'natural' formation. (I sure hope not though!) My theory about the Gulf Of Mexico partially drying up (like the Black Sea) during the Ice Age is dependent on this being a human site.

42 posted on 04/04/2002 11:41:45 AM PST by blam
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To: Carry_Okie
that city that was just found submerged off the coast of Cuba

Is it confirmed, or is it still a "possible?" I also want to use my new word, now. While there may be evidence of saganistic consilience in these observations of localized prehistoric habitation, and we realize there was irrigated agriculture over large areas of South America in those times, still the population of 100 million or so that they hypothesize is not large compared with the present population. It would have been an easier time, not much road rage, not many boom boxes.

43 posted on 04/04/2002 11:44:24 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: blam
That "newest" article is posted on the 2nd thread at about #150.
44 posted on 04/04/2002 11:46:04 AM PST by ASA Vet
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To: spqrzilla9; blam; Carry_Okie
For a discussion of pre-Columbian population levels and the epidemiological effects of the Columbian Exchange, see Secret Judgements of God, I don't have the author. Not a long read, but a pretty thorough documentation of the effects of European and African diseases on the New World populations.

The title refers to what one Spanish imperial writer thought about the great reduction in New World population, and his attempt to account for them. De Soto found the Indian villages of Florida already decimated by disease; the epidemics had struck a generation before his arrival; and New Englanders frequently found abandoned Indian villages, too.

45 posted on 04/04/2002 11:47:52 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: ASA Vet
Probe Into Cuba's Possible 'Sunken City' Advances Dated: 3-29-2002.
46 posted on 04/04/2002 11:48:23 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Absolute trash. For the most part, the new world was populated by savage cannibals that were lucky to live 30 years before succumbing to the elements, or to their enemies. Here is a perfect example of how backward they were: They entire new world was totally ignorant of the invention of the *wheel* before europeans arrived. Except for the turkey, there were absolutely ZERO DOMESTICATED ANIMALS. And the turkey wasn't really domesticated in the sense that we would think. They were semi-domesticated. They had NO knowledge of metal. They had no written language. They had no domesticated grains, except for maize.

Try to immagine what kind of society is possible without metal, the wheel, or domesticated animals. There isn't much there to work with.
47 posted on 04/04/2002 11:48:54 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: mamelukesabre
llama, potato, pepper, gold
48 posted on 04/04/2002 11:53:00 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: mamelukesabre
Make that north america. I should admit that I know almost nothing of south america.
49 posted on 04/04/2002 11:53:17 AM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: blam
That's you? You wrote that book?

Yup. It's me. Why? Did you read it? If not... :-)

I'm complimented to be in such company.

Thank you kindly.

I'm one of the original Silicon Valley boys.

LOL! A Fairchildren?! Anybody I know?

50 posted on 04/04/2002 11:56:48 AM PST by Carry_Okie
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