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Inconstant Speed of Light May Debunk Einstein
Reuters via Yahoo! ^ | Wed Aug 7, 2:07 PM ET | By Michael Christie

Posted on 08/08/2002 9:06:23 AM PDT by Momaw Nadon

SYDNEY (Reuters) - A team of Australian scientists has proposed that the speed of light may not be a constant, a revolutionary idea that could unseat one of the most cherished laws of modern physics -- Einstein's theory of relativity.

The team, led by theoretical physicist Paul Davies of Sydney's Macquarie University, say it is possible that the speed of light has slowed over billions of years.

If so, physicists will have to rethink many of their basic ideas about the laws of the universe.

"That means giving up the theory of relativity and E=mc squared and all that sort of stuff," Davies told Reuters.

"But of course it doesn't mean we just throw the books in the bin, because it's in the nature of scientific revolution that the old theories become incorporated in the new ones."

Davies, and astrophysicists Tamara Davis and Charles Lineweaver from the University of New South Wales published the proposal in the August 8 edition of scientific journal Nature.

The suggestion that the speed of light can change is based on data collected by UNSW astronomer John Webb, who posed a conundrum when he found that light from a distant quasar, a star-like object, had absorbed the wrong type of photons from interstellar clouds on its 12 billion year journey to earth.

Davies said fundamentally Webb's observations meant that the structure of atoms emitting quasar light was slightly but ever so significantly different to the structure of atoms in humans.

The discrepancy could only be explained if either the electron charge, or the speed of light, had changed.

IN TROUBLE EITHER WAY

"But two of the cherished laws of the universe are the law that electron charge shall not change and that the speed of light shall not change, so whichever way you look at it we're in trouble," Davies said.

To establish which of the two constants might not be that constant after all, Davies' team resorted to the study of black holes, mysterious astronomical bodies that suck in stars and other galactic features.

They also applied another dogma of physics, the second law of thermodynamics, which Davies summarizes as "you can't get something for nothing."

After considering that a change in the electron charge over time would violate the sacrosanct second law of thermodynamics, they concluded that the only option was to challenge the constancy of the speed of light.

More study of quasar light is needed in order to validate Webb's observations, and to back up the proposal that light speed may vary, a theory Davies stresses represents only the first chink in the armor of the theory of relativity.

In the meantime, the implications are as unclear as the unexplored depths of the universe themselves.

"When one of the cornerstones of physics collapses, it's not obvious what you hang onto and what you discard," Davies said.

"If what we're seeing is the beginnings of a paradigm shift in physics like what happened 100 years ago with the theory of relativity and quantum theory, it is very hard to know what sort of reasoning to bring to bear."

It could be that the possible change in light speed will only matter in the study of the large scale structure of the universe, its origins and evolution.

For example, varying light speed could explain why two distant and causally unconnected parts of the universe can be so similar even if, according to conventional thought, there has not been enough time for light or other forces to pass between them.

It may only matter when scientists are studying effects over billions of years or billions of light years.

Or there may be startling implications that could change not only the way cosmologists view the universe but also its potential for human exploitation.

"For example there's a cherished law that says nothing can go faster than light and that follows from the theory of relativity," Davies said. The accepted speed of light is 300,000 km (186,300 miles) per second.

"Maybe it's possible to get around that restriction, in which case it would enthrall Star Trek fans because at the moment even at the speed of light it would take 100,000 years to cross the galaxy. It's a bit of a bore really and if the speed of light limit could go, then who knows? All bets are off," Davies said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Technical; Unclassified
KEYWORDS: einstein; light; physics; relativity; speed; universe
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To: Dakmar
Only if you do the search from General Interest. I would think that's the reason for a lot of duplicate threads.

Could be. I don't like posting duplicate threads, which is why I usually search before posting. It would be helpful if the search turned up articles that may have been posted to "other" forums such as General Interest. (or moved there by the Admin Mods). It would save some effort for those who are trying to search first, as well as for the Admin Mods who are trying to keep up with those who don't.

61 posted on 08/08/2002 12:04:38 PM PDT by Willie Green
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To: Momaw Nadon
My bias is that the quotes from Davies suggest a willingness to sensationalize first and do the hard work later. The popular presentation does not suggest either the degree of uncertainty in the measurements or various interpretations of the data. Constancy of fundamental values over time has always been open to question. The existence of the "real" world puts limits on the amount of change which could occur.
62 posted on 08/08/2002 12:07:27 PM PDT by Faraday
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To: Willie Green
I was wondering if there might be a relatively easy way to make the search engine work across all the different forums.
63 posted on 08/08/2002 12:07:54 PM PDT by Dakmar
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To: RightWhale
Then it comes down to what is meant by "vacuum." It might be necessary to add a term to the equations and that will disrupt their apparent canonical simplicity. That's the way it goes.

I think it goes even deeper than that. The speed of light is assumed to be constant on the basis that any observer anywhere who measures electrical and magnetic properties of a vacuum will get the same numbers. E.g., the electric field due to a unit of electrical charge is the same here as it is halfway across the universe.

If those properties can change from place to place, then the speed of light can likewise change, and an observer can detect his motion through a vacuum by monitoring its value. Who's to say they don't change?

64 posted on 08/08/2002 12:09:40 PM PDT by OBAFGKM
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To: Alamo-Girl
Way Cool!! Thanks!
65 posted on 08/08/2002 12:10:47 PM PDT by OBAFGKM
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To: Momaw Nadon
Makes me LOL at all the "Science is my God" guys talking about how some of these famous theories explain everything. Now they're saying the Theory of Relativity is trash?
66 posted on 08/08/2002 12:13:26 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: OBAFGKM
You're quite welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it!!!
67 posted on 08/08/2002 12:14:50 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: OBAFGKM
Who's to say they don't change?

40 years ago when I got my degree in physics I asked those kinds of questions of my professors. They pointed out that there was an opportunity for me to make my mark in physics if I could answer those questions myself. Well, I didn't have the horsepower then, and got my degree anyway. But I still wonder.

68 posted on 08/08/2002 12:15:42 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: Momaw Nadon
Does Captain Kirk know about this? It could ruin his whole mission.
69 posted on 08/08/2002 12:16:11 PM PDT by Don Corleone
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To: Stone Mountain
This is my point. Do you believe that your knowledge of the distribution of animal species is incorrect, or do you believe that Young Earth Creationism thoery needs to be changed? With a scientific theory, the answer to this question is simple - you change the theory to make it fit the facts. However, if you are starting off with an immutable theory, and contradictory evidence appears, don't you end up with a contradiction?

It would help if you understood the difference between Biblical Creationism and Scientific Creationism. Scientifically you can't prove that God created the world in six days, or fish on the 5th day, or that there was a man named Noah. That's Biblical and you either accept it by faith or you don't.

Creation Science deals with the age of the earth and universe, fixity of species, catastrophic geology (vs. uniformatiarianism), etc. These are things that science deals with and I believe the evidence supports a recent creation and a global flood, and contradicts evolution. Just like Newton and Pastuer and thousands of other creation scientists have believed.

70 posted on 08/08/2002 12:16:29 PM PDT by far sider
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To: medved
I more or less agree. But light doesn't travel instantaneously. In fact, it travels faster than time. A simple experiment proves this. Open up your refrigerator, and you'll see that the light inside is already on. Clearly, this could not be possible if the light appears at precisely the same time the fridge is open. This is also why scientists have reported seeing beams of light on earth, seconds before bouncing them off Saturn.
71 posted on 08/08/2002 12:18:59 PM PDT by andy_card
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To: Alamo-Girl
I happen to have had a text on modern physics on my desk open to the pages on development of the Lorentz transformations just today. I have pasted in the matrix notation forms from the webpage you linked since the book lacked those. It will help. Thanks!
72 posted on 08/08/2002 12:20:44 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: Jimer
What does the age of a planet have to do with light coming from an older distant object? If a new planet is formed tomorrow, it too will receive the same old light.

Far Sider's objection is that in a young universe the light would have to be created already on its way to earth at all points between earth and the distant source. No problem with that so far, but, it means that some observers in the universe will have sharp disagreements about the order of events in various places. I.e., cause and effect get to be ambiguous, and, I suppose, free will goes out the window.

73 posted on 08/08/2002 12:20:46 PM PDT by OBAFGKM
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thank ye kindly!
74 posted on 08/08/2002 12:21:21 PM PDT by Chemist_Geek
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To: sheltonmac
It is easy to demonstrate that the speed of light is not constant. Just take a stopwatch and measure the length of time it takes for the bathroom light to come on after you flip the switch. You will come up with a different reading each time.

I tried it and I was about to correct you, but then I realized the batteries in my watch were dead.

75 posted on 08/08/2002 12:23:16 PM PDT by OBAFGKM
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To: OBAFGKM
Thanks for the help.....I think. ;)
76 posted on 08/08/2002 12:23:49 PM PDT by far sider
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To: medved
That's because humans saw the Earth first, and then the stars, as the primordial atmosphere cleared enough for them TO see them.

Fair enough. But how come you get to pick and choose which sections of Genesis to take literally, and which to take metaphorically? Why is it so hard to understand God creating the earth in seven days, as being a metaphor for the multi-billion-year creation process since the Big Bang?

By means of disclosure, I think the Bible is bunk, but have no problem with others believing in it.

77 posted on 08/08/2002 12:24:02 PM PDT by andy_card
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To: RightWhale
Wow! I'm tickled pink. For once I actually had something that was helpful to you instead of the usual other way around. Hugs!!!
78 posted on 08/08/2002 12:24:18 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Chemist_Geek
You are quite welcome!!!
79 posted on 08/08/2002 12:25:51 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Momaw Nadon
Can I introduce this article in my defense against a speeding ticket? The cops were using laser... ;)
80 posted on 08/08/2002 12:28:34 PM PDT by Tallguy
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