HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES [Mary, Mother of God]

The Rock ^ | May 1994 | Mark Shea

[Salvation]

HE INCREASES AND SHE DECREASES

By MARK P. SHEA

 

Some friends are always good for a cheery disagreement--like my pal Bill. Here he is, a guy who modestly describes himself as "The Last Bastion of the Reformation," a guy who sings "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" in the shower, a guy who keeps ribbing me about being Catholic when he knows that I can scarcely resist the challenge to respond. Consider the letter I got the other day, written with Bill's usual joie de vivre, in which he urged me to get a recent book devoted to "critiquing" Marian devotion from an Evangelical perspective.

As a former Evangelical, I know anti-Marian arguments. But, having been a Catholic for nearly six years, I've been surprised to discover how much larger Mary looms in many Protestant minds than in Catholic ones. Maybe I'm languishing in a papally-induced spiritual blindness, but Jesus seems as big to me as ever. Only Mary has changed sizes since I "poped." She got a lot smaller and less threatening.

Since I became a Catholic she often, after directing me to her Son, has seemed to slip out of the room for long stretches, leaving me to talk with him while she busies herself with quietly praying for me or doing some other motherly task. She has been a most unobtrusive presence--endlessly loving and interceding, but not nearly as noisy about it as my Protestant upbringing would have led me to believe.

Yet how can this be? Books have "proven" that Catholics are obsessively fixated on our Lady to the exclusion of faith in Christ. They have shown that all we think about is the way in which Mary can save us from sin. They have demonstrated that I spend day and night obsequiously seeking to have her declared a fourth member of the Trinity.

Of course, there are benighted souls in my communion (Mother Teresa, say) whose summary of Marian devotion is: Love Jesus as Mary loves Jesus, love Mary as Jesus loves Mary. Such people seem to think that Mary is not a goddess but that she has a significant place in the drama of redemption. They regard her as remarkable in that her choice to love and obey the as-yet-unseen and unincarnate Messiah was the very key to the Incarnation.

They find a subtle difference between such faith (unbuttressed and unrehearsed) and the wobbly performance of Peter and Thomas. They attach some quirky meaning to the fact she was the first disciple to say "yes" to the incarnate God and that it was this "yes" and the love it expressed which was the basis of the first and deepest love relationship the Son of God ever experienced as man.

Such cultists seem to have this notion that her role in the life of the Church might extend beyond the physical fact of providing a uterine environment and three square meals a day to the Second Person of the Trinity--that she is something more than a disposable first stage in the Incarnation.

For some reason they hold the belief that Jesus, who obeyed the law perfectly, obeyed the command to love his mother in a way unique in human history and that imitating him might involve us in that love relationship too. They are bewitched with the fact the dying Jesus commanded the disciple he loved (that is, you and me) to have Mary as mother and that she was commanded to have the beloved disciple (that is, you and me) as her son.

These people suspect that as the risen Christ remains human forever, so he remains his mother's son forever. If she loves him, she just might love those who are in him as her own and pray they will love her son with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. Likewise, if Jesus loves her in a unique way and we are to be like him . . . well, you can work that one out.

 

 

[Hunble]

Many Christians find the concept of a mother of Jesus as something rather dangerous, but for almost 2,000 years, the Catholic church has used Mary to represent this aspect.

Is this a little better?

Have I attacked any single individual this time?

[Religion Moderator]

That phrasing is fine.

[Hunble]

Now Alamo-Girl can "lock my heals" at any time, if I say something stupid.

She has earned my respect over the last 10 years!

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL! Thank you for your encouragements!

[Hunble]

Alamo-Girl:

Any Admin Moderator can jump on what I say, but often, I tend to ignore those comments. They have the control over the website, and I must always comply.

What you say, is VERY IMPORTANT to me, because you have earned my respect over these years.

[Salvation]

Mark and Harley -- you have a discussion going about God being partial.  How about this from Acts?  Sorry if I am interrupting the conversation, I just think it is pertinent.  (Emphasis mine.)

 

Reading II
Acts 10:34-38

Peter proceeded to speak to those gathered
in the house of Cornelius, saying:
“In truth, I see that God shows no partiality.
Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly
is acceptable to him.
You know the word that he sent to the Israelites
as he proclaimed peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all,
what has happened all over Judea,
beginning in Galilee after the baptism
that John preached,
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth
with the Holy Spirit and power.
He went about doing good
and healing all those oppressed by the devil,
for God was with him.”

[Montana4Jesus]

Please expound!!!! Mary died and was buried. God rest her soul and absolutely no disprespect intended. Jesus died, was buried and rose again. Mary was a very important figure in Jesus’ life, no doubt, but not “before” Him. There is nothing biblical about that from what I have read. Please help me see what you are seeing.

[MarkBsnr]

I think that we would say that God favours no nation above another. We understand that God bestows favours and gifts that pertain to the individual.

We do not all have the same gifts or advantages. God cannot be impartial if He discerns what is important to us and gives accordingly.

[Salvation]

If Mary died, where is her tomb?

[Salvation]

If Mary died and was buried, where is her tomb?

[Hunble]

Mary, the human mother of Jesus was just that. A human.

For 2,000 years, the Catholic church realized that there was a "female" aspect of God and Jesus, so Mary became that symbol.

Oh well, tonight I learned to be very cautious with the exact words that I use.

[Montana4Jesus]

I don’t know? I was not aware that there was a belief that Mary had not died. Is there a reference that she ascended prior to a physical death? I know that there where two instances of that in the Old Testament but I’ve never heard of that in reference to Mary. Is that what you are implying?

[Montana4Jesus]

Amen. Christ and Him Crusified. That’s what I try and stay close to. However, to your point. I really like what John Eldridge writes about God’s creation of man, in His image, both male and female, he created man in His image. God does have both a masculine and feminine nature to his image and it is found in the depths of the heart of a man and a woman. A warrior and a lover?

[Hunble]

God is life, and life is God.

A rather simple concept.

[Hunble]

Life, without both the male and female, will not extend beyond one generation.

This is so obvious to me, that I was rather shocked that anyone would get upset about that statement.

Oh well, live and learn new lessons each and every day.

[papertyger]

See my post #167.

[Mad Dawg]

Contradicting my own idea of eternity, I would venture to suggest that maybe the Blessed approach Godhood asymptotically.

In the vast imagery surrounding this question, it may be fit to point out the after the final judgment Purgatory closes up shop.

[Mad Dawg]

The word "Partial" is getting us into trouble. Maybe we could look for a synonym.

Words don't kill people, MEANINGS kill people

or something.

[Mad Dawg]

Oh Boy!

It may be useful to think about the difference between "Male and Female" and "Masculine and Feminine".

And in the backflip of theological language, I think the schema is that we call God "Father" because we see fathers more often than we see God, but then (here's the backflip) we say that God is truly Father and human (or other) fathers are only analogically fathers.

In any event, the attributes traditionally associated with God are masculine attributes, not male attributes, I think.

[Mad Dawg]

A rather simple concept.

Be careful with them simple concepts. They can turn around and bite you in the butt.

So, when my life ends, does God end? Does God end for me? Before there was life, was there God? If the universe should end in a big squeeze or in heat death, is it curtains for God too? Or are we talking about some other kind of life - of which, maybe, life as we experience is a simulacrum or approximation?

And, turning now to other news: are hermaphroditic earthworms more, less, or just as godly than/as (Grammar! Come to my assistance!) human-type personnel? Amoebae, sans sex?

Okey dokey, the brain is about as awake as it's going to get. Time to go adore the Father from whom every family on earth is named, as we scripturally ignorant Calflicks like to say.