Posted on 03/17/2008 8:12:36 AM PDT by Ottofire
At least you admit you are badmouthing someone. I find it interesting that the moderator allows you to get away with it.
Look again at my post. I have always said that. Unregenerated man has two choices, sin or not sin. He has NO choice to turn to God.
Unregenerated man has only one choice and that is some form of sin. Even though he thinks he is doing good, his motivation or in his actions; it does not constitute a good work.
Only in Christ can we follow His word and walk in the good works which he has created from the foundation of the world for us to walk in. Thus of folks like us, Christ says "When you did it to the least of these, you did it unto me", but to the folks not in Christ He says "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me"
Thus there are no good works that follow them and all is burned up or thrown on the ash heap of sin.
The unregenerate chose between choices of lesser or greater sin, there is nothing outside of this.
You and I are talking the same thing, only at differing levels. I am not disagreeing with you at all.
Unregenerate man can choose to sin or not sin, as in, even though that person deserves a punch in the nose, I will restrain myself. He has chosen to not sin.
No unregenrated man can choose to follow God, ie, he cannot choose to please God. An unregerated man cannot wake up one morning and say, “I think I will now believe in God.”
Has God given that loophole?? What did God say through the Apostle Paul in Romans? He said "for whatever is not from faith is sin" (14:23)
No there is no loophole according to God.
From mans viewpoint, it would seem that he did not sin because he restrained himself, but not before God. All his works would be burned up, there is nothing left due to his choice even in not acting.
Thus God leaves man no loopholes, mankind's position before God is utterly desperate and bankrupt. There is no position for unregenerate man to say that he never chose to sin, or that in choosing not to sin, he should get a reward.
The "Choice" argument is from man's viewpoint, a chimera which promises good things and good results, but does not deliver.
From God's viewpoint, everything is sovereignly ordained or permitted, He moves in peoples lives as He wishes, those which He elected before the foundation of the world. God the Father draws them irresistibly and yet totally lovingly unto the Son, takes out the heart of stone and gives them a heart of love for Him, and regenerates the mind to hold faith. It is that faith, which God has already planted, that man confesses. And it is God who has ordained all the good works, before the foundation of the world, that he should do.
Thus it is not the choice we should be looking for, but God's prompting and leading us through His Spirit to do those good works outlined in the Scriptures. Lest we find ourselves, like Jonah, fleeing Ninevah.
Election, as taught in Scripture, is not the election of individuals but rather the election of a group of people. Under the new covenant, this group includes all who obey the Gospel of Christ and are added to the church by God.
If Calvin's right, God may have made your friend for the fire, so maybe God is done with him...
Fortunately, Calvin was wrong on his double predestination dogma, among other things.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that DILIGENTLY SEEK him.
Ac 17:27 That they should SEEK the Lord, if haply they might FEEL AFTER HIM, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
The Election God sovereignly did, before the foundation of the world, is by Name. "whoes name was in the book of life" (Philippians 4:3) repeated in (Revelations 3:5). In the Gospel of John "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."
Yes, it also says in Revelations "A people for his own from every tribe and nation". Have you never thought that if it was at random, he would miss some tribes or nations?? No, God is the one who Elects, not man. So that no one will boast. For have you not read:
"and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God." 1 Corinthians 1
No man can boast that he chose God, for there is no room in the scriptures to do so.
Man merely confesses the Faith that God has planted, for Faith is not of man, but the Gift of God:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
For if Faith is the Gift of God, then it did not come from Man.
"Salvation is of the Lord" and not from Man at all, just as God through Jonah said. Thus there is no room for boasting, either of man saying "I chose God" or saying "God chose me"
Then why does He say: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him (John 6:44); and repeats Himself in John 6:65 "And He was saying, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
If God the Son, repeats Himself, then maybe the argument is not with Calvin, but maybe with the Lord Jesus Christ Himself??
God’s knowledge of our past, present and future, does not take away our free will to act.
This article presents a good study of the Biblical doctrine of predestination.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Biblical-Doctrine-of-Predestina.pdf
That is not the way to discuss this. It is not a way to persuade me of your argument. Name calling and aspersions only engender conflicts do they not?
No, let us be like reasonable men, and reason from the Scriptures.
Here, I have presented you with the scriptures that, seems to violates mans free will. That God says "NO ONE" can approach the Lord Jesus Christ, unless He, the Father "Draws" them. And again He repeats it saying "NO ONE".
And I remind you of the Text of this thread, regarding "God's Sovereignly and Paul's Conversion". For you see, did not God violate Saul's will when He interrupted his mission to destroy the Christians at Damascus?
Yes, He has done much much more than we can comprehend, and His loving kindnesses toward folks like us, is beyond our comprehension. For in the case of Saul, his knocking him off his mount and blinding him was pure love, even though, logically speaking, it violated his will. Also have you never read in Romans "Esau have I hated and Jacob have I loved", Paul says from the WOMB! This surely is a violation of Free Will, because neither had a chance to argue!.
As for John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
The whosoever are those who are given the gift of Hearing. For the Lord said in Matthew (and quoted the Old Testament):
"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;"
The Unregenerate cannot hear, for the spiritually dead do not Hear.
This is why the Word of God must be preached and we must obey Christ's admonition to "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel", because we do not know who God has enabled them to hear until the Elect confess and give evidence of their faith.
The unregenerate have the free will to act within the confines of sin, they can do no good works: "THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO NOT ONE" (Romans 3, Psalm 14). Not only this but our Lord Jesus Christ says "As much as you did not do it to the least of these, you did not do it to me".
Those outside of Christ have NO GOOD WORKS to follow them at the Great White Throne Judgment. If man had free will, certainly he would be able to do good works, but apart from Christ, He cannot. For Paul says in Romans 25 "Whatever is not of faith is Sin".
Therefore, there is utterly, no Free Will available for those outside of Christ to do any good works. And God says they are Spiritually dead, unable to spiritually hear, see or spiritually move because they are dead.
“Therefore, there is utterly, no Free Will available for those outside of Christ to do any good works. And God says they are Spiritually dead, unable to spiritually hear, see or spiritually move because they are dead.”
I don’t think you have proven your premise here. If “there is no free will outside of Christ”, is proven, then it opens up serious questions. But I don’t see that you have proven this.
I would contend that there is free will both within and without Christ, but in different realms. A believer in Christ, still sins and does good things of his own volition. A non Christian can sin as well (though he may not be aware of it as sin) and he can do good things as well.
God violates no mans will, He gives us the ability to conform ours to His. Now, what exactly did Christ say in John 6 regarding having life with in us?
Please keep what I say in context of what I said "there is no free will outside of Christ to do Good Works". "Good Works" is defined in Ephesians 2:10 as "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Those outside of Christ cannot. I.E. they are not free to do "Good Works" before God which will count before God for rewards or toward Salvation because God has not ordained them.
So my point is that Free will for those outside of Christ cannot include "Good Works". Thus you must admit that man's Free Will would be heavily restricted and Free Will not totally Free.
And since God through Paul says "Whatever is not of faith, is Sin", the only recourse to those outside of Christ, what is left of free will, is Sin. Unregenerate man therefore is left with three choices, sin by commission, sin by omission, or sin because it has no faith. Now, according to Man, someone outside of Christ, may look like he is doing "Good Works", but not according to God.
That is why I quote Christ, "In as much as you did not do it to the least of these, you did not do it to me". There are No Good Works, nothing good for Eternity, for those apart from Christ. There are NONE. Also, I argued that God interfered with Saul's journey to Damascus, proving that God can interfere before one is saved and be working on a person before their confession of Salvation. Again a clear interference with Free Will.
Also I refereed to Romans, with "Esau have I hated and Jacob, have I loved" as sure proof. Because God chose Jacob even before they were born. Which is certainly unfair according to the Doctrine of Free Will.
Thus I have shown you from God's word that there is a problem between the doctrine of Free Will and "Good Works", as well as between Free will and God's choosing Jacob over Esau (God's sovereign choice).
Lastly, I brought to you the words of the Savior Himself, in that "NO ONE" can come to Him unless it is permitted by the Father and that He repeated this so there would be no mistake.
It looks like one "Comes to Christ", but the fact is that the Father has ordained and permitted him to come before he even chose. Salivations coin, on one side says "Whoever will" - an invitation, but on the other side says "Elect and chosen from the foundation of the world". Free will is a chimera, it looks like a great thing, but in comparison to what God has done from the very beginning, it is nothing. For it is God who took the spiritually dead, did the heart replacement and mind regeneration and planted faith. All that was not done by man.
Thus, for folks like us in Christ, there is no recourse to say before God "I chose you" and it be the basis of our Salvation. Instead one can only say "You have done it all! And are Worthy of Praise!" "Salvation is of the Lord!" There is no room for boasting. Salvation is not of Man in any way shape or form. It is of God from start to finish and all His sovereign plan.
bttt
“Those outside of Christ have NO GOOD WORKS to follow them at the Great White Throne Judgment.”
You’re usng circular reasoning by defining in your last post, “GOOD WORKS”, as dephined in Ephesians. But, this is really not the thrust of your argument, so we can dispense with this and concede this point to get to your thrust below.
“Therefore, there is utterly, no Free Will available for those outside of Christ to do any good works.”
As in your restrictive definition, yet there is still free will to choose the Truth of God and his plan for salvation. For He so loved the world that he sent His Son to give the Good News to all the world.
“Thus you must admit that man’s Free Will would be heavily restricted and Free Will not totally Free.”
Absolutely not. A few examples of God’s intervention do not restrict Man’s will to choose The Way. You can’t prove this biblically, nowhere is it stated.
You seem like a true seeker and I bid you peace, but please read Romans again for perspective. Your use of Romans is not the intent of Paul. In his letter, he is seeking to put to rest the claim of Jewish Christians, who insist Gentiles obey the old “law” of circumcision. But Paul makes it clear that there is a New Covenant now for all of the world. The whole intent is to give the plan of salvation to the entire world.
So, there is irony in using Romans to make a claim that our loving God would preselect those who can or cannot attain salvation. Because through Divine Revelation in Romans Our Lord is opening up His plan of salvation all that accept Him and His Plan. Pray on these things and use this holy week leading up to Easter to explore all of Romans and also the Gospel
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