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SELF-GOVERNMENT - MYSTERIES... ADAM, OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD
Journal of Discourses ^ | APRIL 9, 1852 | Mormon Prophet Brigham Young

Posted on 05/08/2008 7:35:38 PM PDT by P-Marlowe

SELF-GOVERNMENT - MYSTERIES - RECREATION AND AMUSEMENTS, NOT IN THEMSELVES SINFUL - TITHING - ADAM, OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD

 

A SERMON DELIVERED BY PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG, IN THE TABERNACLE,GREAT SALT LAKE CITY, APRIL 9, 1852

1:46

 

It is my intention to preach several discourses this evening, but howmany I do not know.

I will in the first place bear testimony to the truth of many remarks made by brother Hunter, and especially his exhortation to the Seventies and Elders, and those men who wish to go on missions. I wish also to urge the necessity of your proceeding on your missions immediately, and of going to the place of your destination full of the Holy Ghost, preaching righteousness to the people; and while you do this, live up to the principles you preach,that you may teach also by your example, as well as by precept. Go, ye Elders,and now consider yourselves from this time forth missionaries. If the Gospel is in you like a flaming fire, to be poured upon the people, gather your neighbors together, and give your brethren an invitation to your house,and set before them the duties of man; and preach, if you can speak but for five minutes, occupying that time to the best advantage. Continue to preach, study, and learn, by faith and prayer, until your minds and mouths are opened, and you understand most perfectly the love of Christ.

It is not uncommon for Elders to say, "If I could have a mission,and be sent among strangers, I could speak to them, because they have not been instructed in the way of life and salvation: I could lay before them the principles of the Gospel, which have been taught to me, without that diffidence of feeling, and fear, which I experience while speaking to my brethren." It is very true that the first principles of the Gospel taught by the Elders of this Church are easy to be understood, compared with what it is to preach them to our families, or to our neighborhood,and to govern and control ourselves by the principles of righteousness which the Gospel inculcates. Again, to gather the Saints, to preach the Gospel to the world, and convince them of the truth, are much easier tasks than to convince men that you can master yourself, and practise the moral principles inculcated by your religion. That is a small portion of the duty required of you in order to obtain crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives.I will here remark, that it is natural for the people to desire to know a great deal of the MYSTERIES; this, however, is not universally the case,though it is so with a great many of the Elders of Israel. I do not suppose it will apply to those who compose this congregation; your object in being here this evening is not to hear some great mystery of the Kingdom, which you never understood before. The greatest mystery a man ever learned, is to know how to control the human mind, and bring every faculty and power of the same in subjection to Jesus Christ; this is the greatest mystery we have to learn while in these tabernacles of clay. It is more necessary for the Elders to learn and practise upon this lesson in the midst of the Saints at head quarters than in the world; for their facilities for learning are much greater, and I will tell you wherein. Let a Bishop, a High Priest,a President of any Stake or Quorum, any who are Elders in Israel, or any individual Saint from the first to the last of them, fall into error, and it is at once made manifest; he cannot pursue that course any further, forhe is where he can learn his duties, and know how to walk straight in thepaths of righteousness. Here is the place for you to teach great mysteriesto your brethren, because here are those who can correct you. This faultthe Elders of Israel do not fall into in this Tabernacle, although theymay in private houses and neighborhoods. When a man is capable of correctingyou, and of giving you light, and true doctrine, do not get up an altercation,but submit to be taught like little children, and strive with all your mightto understand. The privileges of those who dwell here are greater than theprivileges of those who are abroad. When your duties call you into foreignlands, and you there exhaust your stock of knowledge and wisdom, and youare not in possession of the keys to obtain that instruction which you desire,it is because you are far from the right fountain-far from the body, whereall the members are in lively operation-where the eye can see, the ear hear,the nose smell, and the mouth speak, and so forth. When your face is turnedfrom the body, let mysteries alone, for this is the only place for you tobe corrected if wrong. Preach the simple, unadorned truth; work out yoursalvation with diligence, and do that which will guarantee you a warranteddeed, an undeniable title to eternal lives.

If you feel prayer in you, pray; and if you feel the spirit of preachingin you, preach; call in your brethren, and read the Bible, the Book of Mormon,the Book of Covenants, and the other revelations of God to them; and talkover the things contained in those books, and deal them out to your brethrenand neighbors; pray with them, and teach them how to control themselves;and let your teachings be sustained by your own example. Teach your familieshow to control themselves; teach them good and wholesome doctrine, and practicethe same in your own lives. This is the place for you to become polishedshafts in the quiver of the Almighty. This will answer for one sermon.

I feel much inclined to talk to the brethren: I have not had the privilegeof preaching much for some time, because of the inconvenience of our formermeeting place. Now, as we have a good, convenient place to meet in, andmy health will serve me, I expect to improve the time. I love to preachat home with the Saints. I love to meet with them, and look upon their happycountenances, lit up with the joys of eternity. In short, I love the societyof all good men, and to preach salvation to them.

You may consider what I shall now lay before you a small matter; butI think it of some importance. When the Elders of Israel leave this place,and go forth among the wicked, it is not their privilege to mingle withthem in any of their worldly exercises; for if they do, the devil will obtainan advantage over them, and succeed in drawing them away from the path oftheir duty. For instance-suppose you and I, with many more of the brethren,meet together in a convenient place in the Valley, and dance to the sweetstrains of the violin: we could do so with a perfect good will: but if weshould be called to England, and there have an invitation to join with thewicked in their pastimes and recreations, and we in our feelings bow downto this, and suffer our spirits to be subject to their commandments, wesuffer ourselves to be ruled over by them, and at once become their servants.While I am here, I am in the midst of the Priesthood of heaven, and in thecentre of the kingdom of God. We are before the Lord, where every hand Ishake is the hand of a Saint, and every face I see, when I look upon theassembled thousands, is the countenance of a Saint. I am the controllerand master of affairs here, under Heaven's direction; though there are thosewho do not believe this. I invite those who are not subject to me as theirPresident, not to contaminate my friends; for were I and my friends to becomesubject to those who object to us, we are then on the ground of the devil,and subject ourselves to him they serve.

Never suffer yourselves to mingle in any of those recreations that tendto sin and iniquity, while you are away from the body of the Church, whereyou cannot so fully control yourselves. Let the Elders who are going outfrom this place carry this instruction with them into the other portionsof the earth. Whatever a man does, let him do it in the name of the Lord-lethim work in the name of the Lord, let all his acts through life be in thename of the Lord; and if he wants light and knowledge, let him ask in thatname.

You are well aware that the wickedness of the world, or the apostacy of the Church, is so great, that those who now profess religion cannot enjoy their own natural privileges in the world. In many places their folly andsuperstition are so great that they would consider they had committed thesin of blasphemy if they happened to hear a violin. The whole world couldnot hire a good, honest, sound Presbyterian, of the old fashion and cut,to look into a room where a company of young men and women were dancing,lest they should sin against the Holy Ghost. This over-righteous notionis imbibed by the generality of professors of religion, but it is becausethey themselves have made it a sin. Let us look at the root of the matter.In the first place, some wise being organized my system, and gave me mycapacity, put into my heart and brain something that delights, charms, andfills me with rapture at the sound of sweet music. I did not put it there;it was some other being. As one of the modern writers has said, "Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast." It has been proved that sweetmusic will actually tame the most malicious and venomous beasts, even whenthey have been stirred up to violent wrath, and make them docile and harmlessas lambs. Who gave the lower animals a love for those sweet sounds, whichwith magic power fill the air with harmony, and cheer and comfort the heartsof men, and so wonderfully affect the brute creation? It was the Lord, ourHeavenly Father, who gave the capacity to enjoy these sounds, and whichwe ought to do in His name, and to His glory. But the greater portion ofthe sectarian world consider it sacrilege to give way to any such pleasureas even to listen to sweet music, much more to dance to its delightful strains.This is another short sermon.

I wish now to say a few words to the brethren upon the subject of tithing.It is well known to the majority of this Conference what transpired, lastConference, upon the stand in the old Bowery. At that Conference I had goodcause to find fault with the Bishops, and I took the liberty to brush themdown a little. From that day to this there has been more accomplished byour Bishops in the short space of seven months, than was accomplished bythem for the space of years previously. This gives me great satisfaction.The Bishops have done was well as men could do: their conduct in fulfillingthe duties of their calling has truly been praiseworthy, and I feel to blessthem, and pray the Lord to bless them all the day long, for they have donefirst rate. When we consider the ignorance of the world, their unbeliefin God, and realize that the vail of the covering is over the face of allnations, and remember the ignorance we were once in ourselves, having tocommence like babes at the rudiments of learning, knowing also how falteringmen are in their faith, and then look at what this people have accomplished,we are led to exclaim, "It is marvellous in our eyes!" Were Ito say, "Elders of Israel, you that feel to put your all upon the alter,rise upon your feet," who would be left? (All present rose up simultaneously.)Where is there another people upon the earth who would have done this? Ihave no tithing, but all-all I have is the Lord's. You know the word sacrifice:as brother Banks said to-day, it is a mere burlesque-a nonsensical term.No man ever heard me say I had made a sacrifice. I possess nothing but whatmy heavenly Father has been pleased to give me, or, in other words, He hasloaned it to me while I remain here in this mortal flesh.

It is not marvellous, considering the weakness of man, to see the willingnessof this whole people to die if necessary for the truth? How do you suppose it makes me feel? Though I may sometimes chastise my brethren, and speakto them in the language of reproof, there is not a father who feels moretenderly towards his offspring, and loves them better than I love this people;and my Father in heaven loves them; my heart yearns over them with all theemotions of tenderness, so that I could weep like a child; but I am carefulto keep my tears to myself. If you do wrong, it grieves my heart, and italso grieves the heart of my heavenly Father. I feel continually to urgemy brethren to cease from all evil, and learn to do well.

The fulness of the heavens and the earth is the Lord's-the gold and thesilver, the wheat, and fine flour, and the cattle upon a thousand hills;and when we fully understand His works, we shall know that He is in allthe earth, and fulfils His will among the children of men, exalting anddebasing them according to His pleasure; for the systems, creeds, thrones,and kingdoms of the world are all under His control. "Shall there beevil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it"-or that He doth notcontrol? The Lord controls the whole; and in the end, you will find He hasregulated all things right, for all will be consummated to His glory.

The children of men are made as independent in their sphere as the Lordis in His, to prove themselves, pursue which path they please, and choosethe evil or the good. For those who love the Lord, and do His will, allis right, and they shall be crowned, but those who hate His ways shall bedamned, for they choose to be damned.

As I was meditating on the philosophy of the day, it occurred to my mindhow visible it must appear to all eyes that the Lord does indeed work, thatit is He who blesses this people; and yet it seems as though they cannotsee His hand. The Lord fills the immensity of space. What saith the Psalmist?"Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thypresence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed inhell, behold thou art there; if I take the wings of the morning, and dwellin the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me."I was trying to think of the place where God is not, but it is impossible,unless you can find empty space; and there I believe He is not. If you canfind such a place, it will become useful for a hiding place to those whowish to hide themselves from the presence of the Lord, in the great dayof accounts. I will close this sermon, as I intend to preach another beforeI present the subject I more particularly wish to speak upon.

My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle,or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacleas we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote abou this father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal.

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our FATHER andour GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good forman; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, theFather had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by theHoly Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest ofthe sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession.I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the wholetruth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitiousand over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era;and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming" great is the mystery of godliness," and tell nothing.

It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, "it is an immaterial substance!" What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.

I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever,that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. I will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject, when I replied, to this idea-"if the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties."

Treasure these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read.I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject?Comparatively nothing.

I will now again take up the subject of tithing. The brethren have done well. They have been willing and obedient, no people could have been more so; for this I thank my Father in Heaven. I could not wish a people to work more kindly in the yoke of Jesus than this people do; the yoke grows more and more easy to them. It seems that every man will not only pay his tithing,but give all he has, if the Lord requires it: still I see wherein they Mayo better. I asked the people to day to assist to pay our Church liabilities.The offer of three or four yoke of oxen only, we do not want; but I will lay before you what we wish you to do. By the manifesto which has been read,you have learned the precise situation of the property of the Church. What has incurred this debt? Why does it exist in the shape in which it now appears?And wherein could we have obviated the difficulty, and done better? A fourth part of the money already paid out, did not come in upon tithing. This money we have had to borrow in order to keep the public works in progress. You may say, wherein could we have done better, for we have paid our tithing punctually? But has that brother, who sent $100 back to the East for merchandize,paid $10 of it into the tithing office? Or did the brother who has sent$500 back, let us have $50? No; these have used it themselves, and thereby involved those who bear the responsibilities of the Trust. Again, those who have not possessed sufficient money to send back for merchandize, have been necessitated to pay out what they had. Thousands of dollars have been paid here for merchandize. Has one-tenth of all that money been paid into the tithing office? It has not. And where is the tithing that should have come in from England and California. Instead of tithing their money, they have used it for other purposes, and paid it in property, with which we could not pay our debts. This is wherein we have failed to liquidate our debts. The people go to these Gentile stores, on the Saturday, in crowds,to purchase goods. I think we shall not over-rate the amount, if we say that $500,000 has been paid, in these vallies, to the merchants. But suppose they have received no more than $50,000 from this community, $5,000 of that money ought to have been first paid into the tithing office; and we could have sent it to the States, and purchased goods ourselves, for one-third or one-half less than we have to pay the merchants here. And $25,000 more should have come into the tithing office from the Church in the United States.The brethren in California have made no less than $100,000, the tenth of which is due this tithing office. For want of this money, we are brought into bondage; and we must now apply our faith and works to raise means to liquidate our indebtedness, which has accumulated by purchasing goods thigh and extortionate prices. I find no fault with the merchants, for they came here to gather gold by the hundred weight.

Now, brethren, and Bishops, look over this matter, and try to think whetter feelings would be if you were laid under the same responsibility that I and my brethren have upon our shoulders. We are required to see the Gospel preached to the nations afar off, to build council houses and temples, to cope with the united wisdom and craft of legislative assemblies, and with the powers of darkness in high places; and then place yourselves in the circumstances we are now placed in! Besides all this, see the hundreds who come to us every day to be administered to in various ways: some want fruit,some sugar, others tea, and all want clothing, &c. Then step into our private rooms, where we commune with the people, and you will see and hear all this, and a great deal more. Instead of every man bringing his picayune,or his six pence, or his $5, &c., as tithing on the money in his possession,it is all used for something else, and the storehouse of the Lord is left empty. Suppose nothing had been put in there but what the people have put in, the workmen would have been naked. Walk into the storehouse, and examine for yourselves. To be sure there has been a little clothing put in lately;for instance, there was an old silk dress put in for $40, that had been lying for years rotting in the chest: this is a specimen of the rest. What are such things worth to our workmen? Why, nothing at all. We wish you to put in strong and substantial clothing. Good, strong, homemade stuffs make the most suitable clothing for those who are building up the public works.

Will you help us out of this thraldom, and have it credited to your future tithing? There is already a great deal more due than would liquidate all our debts, but we cannot command it now. Do you feel willing to put your shoulder to the wheel, and continue to roll it forward, and still continue,you that have faith to continue, to increase in faith? for the business of this kingdom will increase, and the responsibility also; the labor will and must grow and continue to increase, until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and His Christ. So much tithing; you see where the failure is; it is in that point, and nowhere else.

It is not for any man to think he is a cipher-that what he can do will not tell in this matter, and say, "They will get along well enough without me;" but it is every man's duty to lay it to heart, and help what he can with his earthly substance; though I wish you to understand distinctly that it is no commandment-you are left to act freely.

Let all the sheep stay in the Valley; also the cows; for they will give milk and butter, and replenish the stock. But when we speak of the horses,mules, and oxen, let every man look up his spare stock of this description,and with them help to liquidate these debts. Stock will now pay debts. I will use my stock for this purpose, and my brethren will do the same, until we have enough. I do not enjoin this upon you, as you have already paid the tithing which is required of you; except in some instances in the money tithing. Had we received the money due to us, we should have had no debts;but this failure has been, and is now, in existence. I will take every kind of spare stock I have, except my cows and sheep, and wipe off these debts until they are cancelled; and now every man who will do the same, let him rise upon his feet. (The whole congregation of two thousand men rose up to a man.) Do you suppose we want to deprive you of your teams? It is notso, but we wished to know the state of your faith, so that when we are readyto call upon you, we can be sure our call will be responded to. I wouldnot cripple any man, I would rather give him five yoke of oxen, than destroyhis team, and you know it. (Some of the brethren in the stand, not believingtheir own eyes, that the whole congregation rose, it was tried over again,to satisfy them, when the congregation all rose again to a man.) BrotherHunter now knows what to do. Many of the brethren are killing their calves;don't do this; if you cannot raise them, it will be better to give themaway to those who can.

I bless you, and may the Lord bless you, in the name of Jesus Christ.Amen.


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: 19; adamgod; lds; mormon; plumnuts; revelation2218
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To: stockpirate
sorry, my bad, I thought I was reading my pings but was actually in the tread.

It DOES get confusing at times!

The time lags, the many threads, the various posters - we ALL tend to get a bit mixed up from time to time.

141 posted on 05/09/2008 12:13:45 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: fproy2222
It is YOU who proves the Bible is not true.

He DID!?

Amazing!

142 posted on 05/09/2008 12:14:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stockpirate

One word caught my attention. Bait. True.


143 posted on 05/09/2008 12:52:58 PM PDT by commonguymd (Let the socialists duke it out. All three of them.)
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To: stockpirate; Religion Moderator
I came across some of the posters on another thread. I was accused of being in a cult, a member of LDS.

There are rules against carrying a dispute from one thread to the another. Resolve the dispute on that thread, not this one.

I assumed rightly or wrongly that these LDS posts were anti-Mitt or Anti-Mormon.

These posts? Do you mean this thread? This thread was started merely by posting a sermon given by Brigham Young in 1852. This is the official transcript of that sermon taken down by scribes who were present at the sermon at the time it was given.

And when I asked a question I was attacked with statements implying I am a member of the LDS cult.

Interesting. You indicated earlier in this thread that you thought that I was somehow the leader of a cult of religious zealots, and here you are calling the LDS Church a cult. Hmmmm.

So, the attackers made me the issue as to why I would even ask a question.

Attackers?

Just look at a recent post on the thread, bassically saying anything you ask or any answer given makes you a member of LDS.

I must have missed that.

Would you consider being numbered among the LDS an insult or attack?

144 posted on 05/09/2008 12:53:39 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

The post to me was in that context of the LDS and cults.


145 posted on 05/09/2008 1:20:31 PM PDT by stockpirate (20,000,000 reasons to NOT support McCain, immigration.)
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To: stockpirate

Isaiah 45:18:

“For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; …I am the Lord; and there is none else.”


146 posted on 05/09/2008 1:28:53 PM PDT by bonfire
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To: P-Marlowe

“When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.”

Just how many wives does Brigham Young think/read/make up that Adam had? Eve was his wife, made of his flesh, so that they could become one flesh. Does Adam have a wife made from each rib in the “updated” version?


147 posted on 05/09/2008 1:33:42 PM PDT by allmendream (Life begins at the moment of contraception. ;))
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To: stockpirate
The post to me was in that context of the LDS and cults.

I'm confused. I thought you said that you thought that I was a member of a cult of religious zealots. In fact, IIRC you said I was the leader of that cult.

Are you now suggesting that you think that the LDS Church is a cult?

148 posted on 05/09/2008 1:34:42 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: allmendream
Just how many wives does Brigham Young think/read/make up that Adam had? Eve was his wife, made of his flesh, so that they could become one flesh. Does Adam have a wife made from each rib in the “updated” version?

I think that if you examine this sermon carefully, you will discover that the other wives that the Prophet Brigham Young is referring to came from another planet.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Did you enjoy this sermon?

149 posted on 05/09/2008 1:46:30 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: bonfire

Is there a God beside me?

I didn’t ask what the bible states, I asked if you believe there is only one God.

But did I not say that you are Gods......


150 posted on 05/09/2008 1:47:54 PM PDT by stockpirate (20,000,000 reasons to NOT support McCain, immigration.)
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To: P-Marlowe

“The Brides from Another Planet” sounds more like a B movie than any theology I would recognize.

Can’t say as how I enjoyed it much; but at least he left his “And so it came to pass” at home.


151 posted on 05/09/2008 1:54:54 PM PDT by allmendream (Life begins at the moment of contraception. ;))
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To: allmendream; P-Marlowe
“When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.” Just how many wives does Brigham Young think/read/make up that Adam had? Eve was his wife, made of his flesh, so that they could become one flesh. Does Adam have a wife made from each rib in the “updated” version?

(Yeah, there was an old TV show called "Adam's Rib." In Utah, the TV stations had to change the name of the show to "Ribless Adam.") :)

152 posted on 05/09/2008 3:08:33 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: fproy2222; P-Marlowe
Using your standers, you have once again proven the Bible to be false…we are just using your standard to judge the Bible. It is YOU who proves the Bible is not true. It is YOUR standard that that proves the Bible is false. Or do you use one stand on yourself, and another on those you disagree with? [fproy2222]

Did Brigham Young prove the Bible false? [p-marlowe]

Fred, what’s your issue with the Bible? (Brigham at one point, at least, had absolutely no issue with it):

He said that they were at one point years before ”very anxious, in the days of Joseph [Smith], to get the new [Bible] translation; but the Bible is good enough just as it is, it will answer my purpose… (JoD, vol. 3, p. 118)

The Bible was ”good enough just as it is for Young. (So what’s your problem about its falsity?) Young didn’t (at least at that time) have any problems with it. Now I am using Brigham’s standard for the Bible. Do you have a problem with that? Do you openly disagree with him?

153 posted on 05/09/2008 3:17:00 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Elsie
To Whom It May Concern:

Gotta "love" all these "To Whom It May Concern" Mormon "Scriptural" manifestos about polygamy (1890) & blacks as priestholders (1978).

(Maybe "To Whom It May Concern" is the newer divine literary device meant to blow us away, kind of replacing the older one of "It came to pass..." Still, it reeks of lawyerese like alcohol "venting" from a beer commercial or local bar. I guess it's nice to know that we have a "cover-all-your-legal bases" god...Tho, I just can't imagine Ezekiel starting off talking about the new covenant to come with a "To whom it may concern" address)

154 posted on 05/09/2008 3:25:11 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Using your standers, you have once again proven the Bible to be false…we are just using your standard to judge the Bible. It is YOU who proves the Bible is not true. It is YOUR standard that that proves the Bible is false. Or do you use one stand on yourself, and another on those you disagree with? [fproy2222]

=+=+=
Did Brigham Young prove the Bible false? [p-marlowe]

Fred, what’s your issue with the Bible? (Brigham at one point, at least, had absolutely no issue with it):

+++++++++++++

You need to read and understand.

p-marlowe said that Brigham young was not a Prophet.

I just applied his way of think, his standard to the Bible, and when the standard used on Brigham Young, is applied to the Bible, p-marlowe’s standard proves the Bible to be wrong.

Either we use his standard on both, or none,

Would you like to use the same standards, or will you continue to use higher standards for Mormons then you use on your own religion?

155 posted on 05/09/2008 11:40:51 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: P-Marlowe

All I did was post this powerful Sermon given by the Mormon Prophet Brigham Young.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So, again, you are saying that you care not to study more to see if you might be wrong.


156 posted on 05/09/2008 11:50:21 PM PDT by fproy2222 ( Jesus is the Christ)
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To: sevenbak; P-Marlowe
Your disguising yourself as a Mormon isn’t working.

How can you come to that conclusion...?

When P-Marlowe clearly at least twice stated in later posts that reading the B. Young sermon was a watershed moment for her/him, and concluded that they could no longer be a mormon.

157 posted on 05/10/2008 5:50:35 PM PDT by Osage Orange (molon labe)
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To: stockpirate
This thread an the others that have been posted have not had an affect on me as I haven’t read an further then the titles.

How is that possible....when you just replied to post 96?

158 posted on 05/10/2008 5:58:08 PM PDT by Osage Orange (molon labe)
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To: Osage Orange

Hello, I just created an account. I was reading what many of you had to say and found it intriguing. I love talking about Mormon apologetics. I am a Mormon and am proud to be such. However I disagree with some people of my faith’s views. Many in my religion when reading the article just posted dismiss it as “Adam=God theory is not correct.” I agree with them on this point.

I profess myself a Christian. But that depends on how you define the term Christian. I believe that Jesus was and is the son of God and as such is the only one that could lay down his life and take it up again. He died spiritually for me in Gethsemane and he died physically on Calvary’s hill, and in both instances was raised up again. Yes “We Believe the bible to be the word of god, so far as it is translated correctly. We also Believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God”
(And speaking on the cult thing...I don’t consider my self a cutest...but what definition of “cult” are you using. That term has so many definitions I think it has lost all meaning.)

However I do not believe in the creeds. I understand many attacks against my religion. And I find it sad that other members of my faith say “Why are you attacking us when we don’t attack you” kind of silly. We do profess to be the only true church of God. Even in our Pearl of Great Price Joseph Smith History 1:19

(forgive me if there are slight mistakes) “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of Godliness, but they deny the bower thereof” (King James edition Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants can all be found at the scripture link at www.lds.org )

To me that is an attack on other faiths. I like what one person on this form said about Brigham, that he was a bold man. And the message of the LDS faith is a bold one.

I like the humor that many of you posses on this form because reading the posts has been very amusing. Yes I have read and watched everything that has been posted (with the exception of the video that was posted on the garment ... I have a feeling I don’t want to see what it is.) now with that being said (sorry for “beating around the bush”) I will talk about how I feel about this address given by Brigham.

It is true. Every word of it. There is nothing in it that I would deny. However I do not speculate as to what certain titles mean. That is that I believe that Adam is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. (sorry bout the caps :-) its just how it is ) explanation...

“He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken-He is our FATHER and our GOD” ... however he is not Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael. He is just Michael. I have not ever found any sermon about Elohim being Adam. But as a Mormon I believe that as god once was man is and as god is now man may become.

By the way I would like to address the reason why this speech was given. “It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views.” in this Brigham uses his humor to “prove” that Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost but the son of God. To explain he has to touch upon the nature of Adam. I have a testimony that Jesus is the only begotten son of god in the flesh... yet I believe that Adam is the literal physical son of God...but not in the flesh. He was in celestial glory when he came to this earth and yet fell. (This is in my opinion why Job glorifies Christ as his redeemer. Even though he is perfect he is fallen physically)
as to eve being one of his wives I think Brigham is saying that he very well may have more than one wife. (men and women can be sealed for eternity and not earth life, or both, or just earth) but the details are kinda fuzzy and if you want to talk about it you should post a discussion on a polygamy form (BTW it is actually polygyny)

And to clarify that he is “the only God with whom WE have to do” I believe that there will be a huge priesthood council held at Adam-ondi-Ahman and there those that hold priesthood keys will be held accountable as stewards to Adam. I believe that Adam is a God of this world. Even as much as if you are exalted you shall be a God of this world. (I say that as in Eloheim is a God of Kolob)
Hope that clarifies things. You can still believe what you will. If you think that Brigham is really saying that Michael is Eloheim go for it. But that is not what I believe he is professing. Nor would he ever.


159 posted on 07/24/2008 10:15:51 PM PDT by beforeadam
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