Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
He also argues that Sunday is not the Lord’s Day, the Church is the harlot, and that the Pope is the antiChrist.
Nice.
It is true.
***I received the same “admonition” from the same poster.
Never does such a comment cease to amaze me, especially so when it’s addressed to you personally, as was done to me.***
I wonder what his Judgement Room looks like. Will he have angels serving him and saints praying endlessly to him?
Then someone should tell the RCC to stop encouraging its members to believe Mary shoulders the burden for their sins.
I think this may refer to people who were worshiping the sun, mother nature, Greek Gods, etc. There were entire civilizations that worshiped animals and the like.
I don't see how God would have a problem with our great appreciation of His children that have served him.
We are called to love each other. Not ignore everyone except Jesus.
The following is an interesting article.
"Woman Who Had Near-Death Experience Recalls Surprising Way She Was 'Judged' ...
While we should be prudent with everything we accept, I think it is an insightfull article. It is only for those who believe that Jesus is still with us and continues to enlighten us. Not for Sola Scritura followers.(This article wasn't in the Bible)
"Pride goeth.............."
While Christ walked the earth, did He preach or did He write?
What is the RCC?
LOL. And yet you asserted the supremacy of "oral tradition" with you wrote...
Jesus taught entirely orally and that is how the early Church taught.
Seems like you're now confirming the fact that Jesus' ministry has been committed to the written word.
On that, we agree.
***Dr. Paisely is not trying to build or sustain a movement by telling people that salvation, God’s greatest blessings, or the depths of Christian joy are tied somehow to his own church, denomination or communion table. And that does make a big diffrence to many.***
Well, what has he done?
He created his own church. And has parlayed that status into becoming the head of the Democratic Unionist Party and has been a member of both the British and European Parliaments (kinda reminds me of certain preachers here in that regard).
http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp gives Paisley’s full explanation of how the Pope is the anti Christ.
What is he doing? Gathering money and power.
LOL, They are so intent on harm to Catholics that they would rather take the word of someone who believes Jesus isn’t Jesus.
Par for their course. No slander too malicious, no pretended ignorance too fantastic, just as long as those words “prove” their position.
These people who supposedly base their believe on Scripture alone will grasp any straw to defame Catholicism. It is quite sad.
***Better to know what you are saying and have a slight spelling definciency than to spell correctly and have a logic deficiency.***
I prefer to have a good knowledge of what I am saying, good spelling and grammar and good logic and reason.
And, by the Grace of God, I am a member of His Church. He has blessed me considerably, I can ask for no more except to be with Him forever.
***It was some time ago. I wish that FR had an in-post search function.
I’ll see what Google can come up with.
Some time ago and you still bear the cross of agony. Get over it.***
Some of us have meetings and stuff to go to, but if you insist. I did manage to find the other references you enquired about.
***So where’s His command to ammend the Scriptures and make them the highest authority.
If it were that important, don’t you think we’d have been given unambiguous instructions?***
You’d think that the hijacking Reformed Holy Spirit would bring a full set during the moment of saving the elect that is perfect and therefore nobody would argue or misunderstand or have hundreds of different Bibles and tens of thousands of different beliefs.
***I assure you if I had seen these posts (the last two) I would have taken exception.***
I believe you would. Even though we are on different sides usually. And I thank you for that.
***It is just as bad as the Pope telling us we must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation.***
See?
***But, of course, He did tell all those that recorded the books that make up the scriptures to indeed write them down—by His Spirit.***
Where does it say that? Are you making this up? Chapter and verse please.
***Yes. He said at one point to the Jews, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” ***
Testimony is not all encompassing. It by itself does not necessarily consitute proof. It is evidence.
***And, of course later He said, “Follow Me.” ***
To the Apostles, to which He later told them to go to the whole world.
***I have unused crutches in my shed, I have several unused orthotics in my closet, and I can’t begin to tell you how many bandages have been discarded in the trash over the years.***
In many cases, the people were carried in and walked out. It’s been a few years, but I remember a bunch of wheelchairs, and at least a couple of stretchers.
***”What saith the Scriptures?
Read the Scriptures, Mark. Christ said repeatedly...***
You mean like this?
John 19:
24
So they said to one another, “Let’s not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it will be,” in order that the passage of scripture might be fulfilled (that says): “They divided my garments among them, and for my vesture they cast lots.” This is what the soldiers did.
If we look at the timeline, first came the OT, then came Christ (from whence came the Gospels) and then came the rest of the NT. Perhaps there is some difficulty in understanding the sequence of events that I can help with.
***Please, Dr. E., read the words of Jesus which are as mountains over the words of men.
LOL. And yet you asserted the supremacy of “oral tradition” with you wrote...***
Ummm, the oral tradition taught the words of the Lord.
***Jesus taught entirely orally and that is how the early Church taught.
Seems like you’re now confirming the fact that Jesus’ ministry has been committed to the written word.***
Your ears to hear may have had the batteries turned off. The written word includes Scripture and the Catechism.
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