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Can a Catholic Christian Pray Like a Jew? ľ Conclusion
Vivificat! - News, Opinion, Commentary & Reflections from a personal Catholic perspective ^ | 26 December 2009 | TDJ

Posted on 12/26/2009 3:23:12 PM PST by Teˇfilo

Folks, I’ve really taken a long time to write this conclusion to the posts Can a Catholic Christian Pray Like a Jew parts I and II. The delay was due to various reasons, but the most important were that I wanted to reflect longer on the meaning of each post, as well as the review of an ever increasing stack of material that I’ve either discovered or that some of my correspondents have kindly referred me to. Therefore, please know that mine is not the last word on this subject. Nevertheless, what I’ve found fascinates me.

There seems to be a mysterious convergence of people of faith, Catholic and non-Catholic, drawn to the rediscovery of Christianity’s Jewish roots and a renewed attempt to reconcile ourselves with our brothers and sisters of postbiblical Judaism after 1,600 years of openly hostile enmity. This effort includes a scholarly attempt to resituate Jesus firmly within his First Century Jewish milieu, as well as a “recalibration” of Christian dogmatics that takes full advantage of this resetting. A respectful apologetics of Christianity – and Catholicism – has also been taking shape, one that is respectful of the Jewish post-Christian experience and mindful of the responsibility that our ancestors bear in the promotion of hostile, destructive, and persecutory actions aimed against Judaism as a religion and Jews, both as a people and as believers. While acknowledging this tragic past, the apologetic and evangelistic presentation of Jesus as both Messiah and Savior of the Jewish people – and principally for the Jewish people – continues relentlessly, albeit with delicacy and a full consciousness of how much Anti-Semitism has damaged the visible reunion between the historical Israel and the New Israel founded by the Blood of the Lamb.

Tragically, the Jewish-Catholic dialogue and rapprochement has also resulted in a resistance which as vocal as it is vile and vitriolic in its anti-Jewish hate. We can see examples of these regrettable attitudes here and here. It is a shame that people who consider themselves “Catholic” are still able to fall so short from the standard of Love the Lord left to us. But I will address the causes of Anti-Semitism and Anti-Judaism – the devil, the flesh, and the world – in a future post. For now, let me briefly review with you Can a Catholic Christian Pray Like a Jew parts I and II:

On part I we briefly discussed the Jewish characters of a number of hymns and prayers found in the Gospels that point to a definite convergence between Christianity and First Century Judaism. In fact, for these prayers and hymns to be fully intelligible, they must be read against the context of Judaism or not at all. We also talked about the Psalms and how these were Jesus’ own prayer book, and how Jesus went by himself many times to commune with the Father. I concluded with the observation that a Christian in general, and a Catholic in particular, can pray like a Jew, albeit a first century Jew, inasmuch as we pray like and in Jesus. Yet Jesus’ presence in the praying Catholic Christian is not a mere memory of someone who existed once in the past but who is only available to us through holy writings, but a living, breathing presence indwelling in us, who both prays in us and moulds us to pray like Him. In this sense, a Catholic prays like a Jew “all the time”. The reality of “praying like a Jew” is present in each one of us through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

On part II we spoke mostly of divergences. The first divergence was that Jewish prayer was mostly liturgical in character, in both its public and private manifestations, and that these prayers include a fervent element designed to strengthen the Jewish identity of the praying community or individual. We also saw than within this context, intimacy with God was assumed or conceived differently from the way we usually understand it from the writings of our greatest mystics. I said that if I were to encapsulate Jewish theology in one catchphrase, I would say that Jewish theology is “a theology of boundaries” between man and his Lord that cannot be crossed. These boundaries have dropped for Catholic Christians, and our communal experience of contemplative prayer has developed a vocabulary of “quest,” ascent, and union with God in the order of grace and that we found this “grammar of ascent” in the New Testament itself.

Some of the statements I said above regarding Jewish contemplative understandings are liable to further review, I am afraid. What I’ve written has been mostly based on very preliminary readings from a couple of authoritative primers. However, I must also say that the reasons why a number of Jesus’ own Jewish contemporaries picked up stones from the ground to throw at Him was because they understood very clearly the consequences of Jesus’ claims to be God’s ultimate, personal, Incarnate manifestation to them: that meant that the boundaries had fallen. Jesus was now the Temple and anyone could approach God in Him at any time without consideration of status or class. His claims must have been deeply unsettling and threatening to the Jewish identity of his hearers and to Israel’s claim of being God’s unique people, as well as deeply subversive to established political interests.

Modern Judaism exists because of the adhesion of most of Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries to “the eternal Israel”. We can see that in the quotes from Rabbi Neusner that Pope Benedict XVI included in his book Jesus of Nazareth. Hence the theology of dropped boundaries and direct, personal, and unmediated experience with God in incarnated human form didn’t make it into Judaism. Of course, post-biblical, post-second Temple Judaism was not impervious to Christian reflection on this issue and one may see here and there a “shifting of the boundaries” now closer to God, that allow the individual Jew a closeness and intimacy they never had before, when their sacrificial priesthood was in full functioning. But the barriers, and the boundaries, those closer to God than ever before, still remain.

We Christians must understand that why our Jewish brethren still set up and maintain these barriers and the motivations behind them. But we can’t make their barriers our own. The only limit we face in knowing God is Jesus’ own instrumental humanity which is, paradoxically, as finite as ours and yet bottomless and boundless in the expression of the eternal, infinite divinity of God. God in human form has become intelligible to our minds and senses while the mystery remains inexhaustible and unfathomable.

It’s a lot like looking at the Sun: we can tell it’s bright, hot, pretty large, and very active. But we can only guess at what’s going on in its core even though we dispose of a set of mathematical symbols that gives us an idea, but not the actual experience of what’s going on at the heart of the Sun.

Similarly, when we look at the Heart of the Son, we can use a set of symbols – words, phrases, and sentences – that may describe analogically and in fragments what’s going on in there, at the core of Jesus’ humanity; however, although we might never experience what is like in the core of our nearest star, we are called, even impelled, to “experience” the Trinitarian perichoresis –the “dancing together –going on in the Heart of the Son of God.

Therein lays the difference between the objects of Jewish and Christian prayers: Jewish prayer looks at God the way we would look at the Sun, but Christian prayers looks at God by looking at the Son, beyond symbol and expression and by full participation in the Son’s divine life.

This is not to say that Jewish prayer can never take us to the Heart of Christ. Remember that we said that all those very Jewish canticles and prayers we find in the Gospels and elsewhere in the New Testament and first and foremost Jewish in essence. The mystery is completely intelligible in Jewish-Hebraic terms to those who heard it and in the Gospel we are privy to their reactions: acceptance by some and rejection by others. In this the Jews of Jesus’ times were no different than the Jews and Gentiles of today, including Catholics who think they know Him and that hating the Jews is doing God’s service. But they do not. The message of God’s ultimate entry into contingent human history continues actual and fresh and challenging to this day.

We can pray the Our Father and those other prayers and hymns in the New Testament as Jews and only in this way we can experience them primarily as Christians. There’s simply no way around it. In this manner, all Catholics could and should pray like Jews. May the blessing of the Almighty God, Father, Son, and + Holy Spirit be with all of us.


TOPICS: Catholic; Judaism; Prayer; Theology
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Blunders. Typos. Mine.
1 posted on 12/26/2009 3:23:13 PM PST by Teˇfilo
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To: Te├│filo
Can a Catholic Christian Pray Like a Jew?

Sure, why would anyone want to? It would be so much better to cast off the inadequate doctrines and unbelief of the Jew as well as the idolatry and works righteousness of the Catholic and just be an orthodox New Testament Christian.

This post is an excellent example of one who is "ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."

2 posted on 12/26/2009 4:52:41 PM PST by good1
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To: Te├│filo
The Jews reject your God, Theofilo. They reject all and every Christian scripture too. They have done so pretty much from the end of the first century until today. There is no convergence.
3 posted on 12/26/2009 4:58:27 PM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: Te├│filo
As a disciple of Messiah, I am obligated to be like Him. He said,"

A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. Luke 6:40

I pray regularly from an Orthodox Siddur. The vast majority of the prayers therein are ancient in origin, and many of the same ones that Messiah prayed in the First Century.

Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour... Acts 3:1

Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. Acts 10:9b

So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house... Acts 10:30

The first disciples, likewise found themselves praying not as "Christians" but as Jews.
4 posted on 12/26/2009 4:59:27 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

Well said, my Brother!


5 posted on 12/26/2009 5:43:53 PM PST by Colorado Cowgirl (God bless America!)
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To: kosta50
There is no convergence.

Might try reading your Bible a little closer.

God made a covenant with the Jewish. God cannot break his covenant. We are in the time of Gentiles, but that time is coming to a close.

The Bible tells us that us gentiles were grafted in. We are not the root, but the branches. Paul tells us that if Jews do not continue in unbelief can be grafted back in.

It is through Gods grace and mercy, that HE has allowed us to be grafted in.

Christianity IS NOT a repudiation of Judaism. But Christianity is a fulfilling of Judaism.

We celebrate Christmas and Easter, but those are man made holidays. But most Christians don't celebrate Passover or other Jewish holidays, and yet GOD created those celebrations. They were to be reminders of his great works and faithfulness. And yet gentile Christians don't celebrate them, even though WE are the adopted ones, the grafted ones.

We should NEVER be arrogant in our status or views towards our Jewish brothers.

God loves the Jewish people more than any other people. HE has chosen them.

It should be with humility and thankfulness that we view ourselves, in Gods family.

6 posted on 12/26/2009 5:45:35 PM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: Te├│filo

Sure. Pray The Lord’s Prayer.


7 posted on 12/26/2009 8:41:27 PM PST by onedoug
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To: mountn man

“Christianity is a fulfilling of Judaism” ?

Would it be, therefore, that when a Jewish individual accepts the finished work of Christ for himself, his Judaism is all the more complete?


8 posted on 12/27/2009 3:21:46 AM PST by caww
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To: mountn man
Might try reading your Bible a little closer

Maybe you should too.

God made a covenant with the Jewish. God cannot break his covenant

God didn't break his covenant, but the people he made the covenant with did—repeatedly.

We are in the time of Gentiles, but that time is coming to a close.

That was Paul' idea, not Jesus'. Jesus says he was sent ONLY for the lost tribes of Israel and he wanted his disciples to minister ONLY to them. "Might try reading your Bible a little closer."

The Bible tells us that us gentiles were grafted in. We are not the root, but the branches

The Christian Bible claims that. The Jewish doesn't.

Paul tells us that if Jews do not continue in unbelief can be grafted back in

How can the root [the Jews] be grafted back in? What is supporting the branches? "Might try reading your Bible a little closer."

It is through Gods grace and mercy, that HE has allowed us to be grafted in

Whatever.

Christianity IS NOT a repudiation of Judaism. But Christianity is a fulfilling of Judaism

So, then why don't Christians call themselves Jews, since they practice "Judaism?" Why are churches called churches and not synagogues?

Besides, Judaism is a repudiation of Christianity. Judaism soundly rejects Jesus as God, or God's the anointed one (Messiah). Judaism, unfailingly, specifically rejects any and all Christian books and teachings.

So, we have a problem. Which is the true, legitimate Judaism? Rabbinic Judaism, or Christianity?

But most Christians don't celebrate Passover or other Jewish holidays, and yet GOD created those celebrations

If Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, as you say, then why not? Don't they know they are really "Jewish?"

And yet gentile Christians don't celebrate them, even though WE are the adopted ones, the grafted ones

Maybe it's because the Law doesn't apply to this new "Israel."

We should NEVER be arrogant in our status or views towards our Jewish brothers.

We shouldn't be arrogant towards anyone. But, the Jews are not Christian brothers in Christ, so calling them "brothers" is being arrogant towards them. Don't insult them.

God loves the Jewish people more than any other people. HE has chosen them

Funny, John says God loved the whole world. "Might try reading your Bible a little closer."

It should be with humility and thankfulness that we view ourselves, in Gods family.

What does that have to do with the topic?

9 posted on 12/27/2009 3:55:12 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: caww
Would it be, therefore, that when a Jewish individual accepts the finished work of Christ for himself, his Judaism is all the more complete?

Sounds absolutely perfect to me.

10 posted on 12/27/2009 5:15:09 AM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: Te├│filo; kosta50; mountn man

“We can pray the Our Father and those other prayers and hymns in the New Testament as Jews and only in this way we can experience them primarily as Christians. There’s simply no way around it. In this manner, all Catholics could and should pray like Jews.”

Interesting obrservation, T. Don’t forget that The Church is the New Israel, not Israel. Our covenant is different from theirs.

I’ve practiced law for many, many years with a good Jew who knows the history of his people and his religion. He always says how comfortable he is at an Orthodox liturgy, remarking that “take away all the Jesus stuff and it feels like what I imagine a temple ceremony was like.” But he’s no Christian...and I am no Jew. Different covenants, T.

That said, Greeks and Jews together make the perfect combo since we are both Chosen People of God and His favorite naughty children! We, as they say, understand each other.


11 posted on 12/27/2009 5:21:33 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Te├│filo; mountn man
Teófilo: “We can pray the Our Father and those other prayers and hymns in the New Testament as Jews and only in this way we can experience them primarily as Christians. There’s simply no way around it. In this manner, all Catholics could and should pray like Jews.”

Except that Jews don't pray the Lord's Prayer. You are building a house of cards, Teófilo.

12 posted on 12/27/2009 6:20:12 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: kosta50
Except that Jews don't pray the Lord's Prayer. You are building a house of cards, Teófilo.

Uh huh.

I explained the divergences in Part II, including the ones that stop post-biblical, post-second temple ("modern") Jews to reach an intimacy with God that would allow them to call Him "Father" as Jesus did.

Perhaps if you had read the entire 3-part essay...

But hey, I can't say I blame you totally. My writing is many times long, boring, and sleep-inducing. What I mean is that you can't kindly accuse me of not having dealt with the point you raise. :-)

-Theo

13 posted on 12/27/2009 7:14:07 AM PST by Teˇfilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Kolokotronis
Interesting obrservation, T. Don’t forget that The Church is the New Israel, not Israel. Our covenant is different from theirs.

I understand that. However, that raises the question if Jews are saved through observance of the Old Covenant, apart from Christ. Prickly prickly!

I’ve practiced law for many, many years with a good Jew who knows the history of his people and his religion. He always says how comfortable he is at an Orthodox liturgy, remarking that “take away all the Jesus stuff and it feels like what I imagine a temple ceremony was like.” But he’s no Christian...and I am no Jew. Different covenants, T.

Different perceptions of a phenomenon whose underlying Reality is the same, K.

That said, Greeks and Jews together make the perfect combo since we are both Chosen People of God and His favorite naughty children! We, as they say, understand each other.

Absolutely! 100% Agreed!

-Theo

14 posted on 12/27/2009 7:18:22 AM PST by Teˇfilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te├│filo; Kolokotronis
I explained the divergences in Part II, including the ones that stop post-biblical, post-second temple ("modern") Jews to reach an intimacy with God that would allow them to call Him "Father" as Jesus did

There was never any intimacy with God in Judaism. It would have been considered a blasphemy to even dare suggest that one is his son. Those who are referred to as the sons of the Elohim (angels and kings) are adopted as God's favorites, and God is not their real father. The Jewish messiah was never supposed to be a divine "offspring" of God, and the Gospel of mark makes that perfectly clear.

The idea that we are to become perfect as "your Father in heaven is perfect" is an ontological innovation alien and blasphemous to Judaism.

Again, you are building a house of cards, Teofilo.

15 posted on 12/27/2009 7:33:29 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: Te├│filo; Kolokotronis
In fact, the whole idea that we can somehow be also "related" to God is a wholly pagan ontological concept encountered, for example, in Greek mythology. To a Jew, we are but merely created in the image and likeness of God. Saying that God is your Father to a Jewish mind is like a photograph calling a photographer its father. This is an ontologically unbridgeable divide, Teofilo. Christianity is in a large part a mixture of Platonic as well as Aristotelian paganism inserted into Judaism and, as such, it is unrecognizable to a Jewish mind. There is no covnergence.
16 posted on 12/27/2009 7:42:12 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: kosta50
God made a covenant with the Jewish. God cannot break his covenant

God didn't break his covenant, but the people he made the covenant with did—repeatedly.

Israel may have broken its covenant, BUT it has no effect on God. Gods covenant is eternal.

In ancient times, before written contracts, parties of a transaction would take an animal, slice it in half, and each party walk between the halves. As they walked they would say, "May I be as this animal (split asunder) if I violate my half of the bargain." This type of contractual agreement is recorded in Genesis 15. God is pictured as entering into covenant with Abraham. The animals were split as the tradition prescribed, but amazingly only God walked between the sacrifice. Abraham was in a deep sleep at the time. God said in effect, "This transaction, this covenant, I am making is not a two-way street. I and I alone take responsibility for its fulfillment."

2 Timothy 2: 13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Romans 11: 1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew.

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!

28 but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Written by Paul AFTER Christs crucifiction.

We are in the time of Gentiles, but that time is coming to a close.

That was Paul' idea, not Jesus'. Jesus says he was sent ONLY for the lost tribes of Israel and he wanted his disciples to minister ONLY to them. "Might try reading your Bible a little closer."

Luke 21: 24 and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Last I checked, Luke was written by Luke, and at this time was quoting Christ.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Last I checked Matthew quoted Christ. This passage is commonly called the Great Commission.

The Bible tells us that us gentiles were grafted in. We are not the root, but the branches

The Christian Bible claims that. The Jewish doesn't.

It doesn't matter IF the Jewish Bible says this or not. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

What DOES the Old Testament say?

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Psalm 117:1 O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people.
2For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD endureth for ever. Praise ye the LORD.

Seems the Old Testament even mentions gentiles and all nations seeking and praising God.

Paul tells us that if Jews do not continue in unbelief can be grafted back in

How can the root [the Jews] be grafted back in? What is supporting the branches? "Might try reading your Bible a little closer."

Romans 11: 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

It is through Gods grace and mercy, that HE has allowed us to be grafted in

Whatever.

Romans 11: 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

Whatever indeed.

Christianity IS NOT a repudiation of Judaism. But Christianity is a fulfilling of Judaism

So, then why don't Christians call themselves Jews, since they practice "Judaism?" Why are churches called churches and not synagogues?

Besides, Judaism is a repudiation of Christianity. Judaism soundly rejects Jesus as God, or God's the anointed one (Messiah). Judaism, unfailingly, specifically rejects any and all Christian books and teachings.

So, we have a problem. Which is the true, legitimate Judaism? Rabbinic Judaism, or Christianity?

I think this is pretty obvious, and your just looking for an argument.

Christians are called Christians because we believe Jesus is the Christ the Messiah. Todays Jews, the Non-Messianic Jews, do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, but Messianic Jews do. They are Christians, because the believe Jesus is the Christ. They also practice Judaism, because REAL Judaism never ended with Jesus, it continued.

The Apostles didn't stop celebrating Jewish festivals, or denied their Jewishness. Why should Gentile Christians?

Judaism DOES NOT reject Christ, it points TO Christ.

The prophecies of the Old Testament point to a coming Messiah. Messianic Jews believe Jesus is the fulfilment of that prophecy. Non Messianic Jews do not. When talking about Judaism its important to know and note the difference.

But most Christians don't celebrate Passover or other Jewish holidays, and yet GOD created those celebrations

If Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, as you say, then why not? Don't they know they are really "Jewish?"

Its important to understand, Yes, the Jewish holidays, are feasts commanded by God. But instead of looking at these simply as Laws that must be obeyed or observed, we should see them as they REALLY ARE.

These are Celebrations. Feasts. Parties.

God commanded HIS people to PARTAAY!!!

These Celebrations are to celebrate what God has done for the people of Israel. They are to be a continual reminder to the people OF WHAT God has done, BUT ALSO who Israel is to God.

As men and women we celebrate wedding anniversaries. Throughout the Bible God describes his people as his bride, and Christ as the bride groom. Imagine a wife FORGETTING or DISREGARDING her wedding anniversary, how would her husband feel? Israels festivals are like anniversaries. God is a God who wants to be loved and cherished. To be remembered. To be known for his gifts and blessings.

As a gentile believer I wasn't brought up celebrating the Jewish holidays. As I get older, I think its something I need to look into. Not as a law, but as a celebration of God, and what he has done.

And yet gentile Christians don't celebrate them, even though WE are the adopted ones, the grafted ones

Maybe it's because the Law doesn't apply to this new "Israel."

We should NEVER be arrogant in our status or views towards our Jewish brothers.

We shouldn't be arrogant towards anyone. But, the Jews are not Christian brothers in Christ, so calling them "brothers" is being arrogant towards them. Don't insult them.

God loves the Jewish people more than any other people. HE has chosen them

Funny, John says God loved the whole world. "Might try reading your Bible a little closer."

It should be with humility and thankfulness that we view ourselves, in Gods family.

What does that have to do with the topic?

As far as the rest of your comments, I think I've already dealt with them in one form or another, and no need to be redundant. I think ALL of Romans 11 is great for truely understanding how jews and gentiles fit into Christianity. Its something I always seem to learn more from every time I read it.

17 posted on 12/27/2009 7:56:02 AM PST by mountn man (The pleasure you get from life, is equal to the attitude you put into it.)
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To: Te├│filo
Except that Jews don't pray the Lord's Prayer.

Jesus was a Jew.

18 posted on 12/27/2009 8:06:43 AM PST by onedoug
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To: mountn man
Israel may have broken its covenant, BUT it has no effect on God. Gods covenant is eternal.

"Might try reading your Bible a little closer." Heb 8:6 "He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises." Ooops, a better covenant with better promises? Was God holding back?

Or perhaps Deut. 5:3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today." So, how many covenants was God making (not counting the one Jesus made at the Lats Supper)?

And what happens with those "old covenants?" Let's see what the Bible says..."When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." [Heb 8:13]

Sure looks like his "eternal" covenant is not only not eternal but not a single one either. "Might try reading your Bible a little closer."

19 posted on 12/27/2009 8:16:29 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: mountn man
2 Timothy 2: 13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Nonsense. The Old Testament God destroys the faithless. And who makes them faithless? God, of course. He hardens their hearts, and then he punishes them for it. Think of the Pharaoh. He was the fall guy in God's scheme of things and a faithful Pharaoh was not an option.

Others, who were supposed to be faithful, but are not, are done away with. Lot's wife is turned into salt for being faithless. The soldier who tried to stop the Ark from falling was killed for touching it (but not the Babylonians who stole it–LOL!).

20 posted on 12/27/2009 8:23:54 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: mountn man
Romans 11: 1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew

Paulianity is neither Judaism nor Christianity. Paul says he was eveyrhting to all people, whatever they needed to hear, he was that.

21 posted on 12/27/2009 8:25:57 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: onedoug; Te├│filo
T>Except that Jews don't pray the Lord's Prayer.

Jesus was a Jew.

Yah'shua was, is and will be always be a Jew !

He will come to reign the world from Jerusalem
on King David's Throne during the millennium.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
22 posted on 12/27/2009 8:27:40 AM PST by Uriĺel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: mountn man
Luke 21: 24 and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

This is just the same old same old "if you don't believe this is what will befall you..." Luke 21:10-24 is just a mumbo-jumbo collection of various "prophesies" collected out of context from various parts of Isaiah, Daniel and the rest of the OT. Jerusalem is back in Jewish hands...and nothing.

19Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Then you can tell me why are the Apostles then baptizing in the name of Jesus throughout the book of Acts? And why does Eusebius (in the 3rd century) quote no less than 17 times the very same verses without the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost? I will tell you why: because it wasn't there. Someone, conveniently, added it later on.

It's good to see that you are cherry-picking those verses that suit you and ignoring those that don't. Why not pick verses that are not questionable such as Like Mat 10:5-6 "'Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" or Mat 15:24 "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"?

To use your own words "Last I checked Matthew quoted Christ." Read your Bible a little closer.

It doesn't matter IF the Jewish Bible says this or not

Well, it does to the Jews.

The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament

Hardly.

23 posted on 12/27/2009 8:44:48 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: mountn man
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Out of context. It says nothing about brining the gentiles into the fold. At any rate, it was Pal who invented the idea that Gentiles are always non-Jews. The OT treats the word gentile (goy) as a "nonbeliever" whether it be a Jew or nor.

Psalm 117:1 O praise the LORD, all ye nations: praise him, all ye people. Translational bias. The word for nations is tribes. He could just as well be speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel. David would have been thinking of Israeli tribes.

Seems the Old Testament even mentions gentiles and all nations seeking and praising God

Seems to be you are reading into translations and interpreting the mindset and the meanings of the Middle eastern society 2,000 and more ago.

24 posted on 12/27/2009 8:53:28 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: kosta50; Te├│filo
Except that Jews don't pray the Lord's Prayer. You are building a house of cards, Teófilo.

From the Shem Tov Matthew:
Our father in heaven
may your name be sanctified
may your kingdom be blessed
your will shall be done in heaven and on earth
give us our bread continually
forgive us the debt of our sins
as we forgive the debt of those who sin against us
do not bring us into the hands of a test
and protect us from all evil
amen
Spoken by Yah'shua a Jew, then and now and forever.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
25 posted on 12/27/2009 9:11:44 AM PST by Uriĺel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: mountn man
Seems the Old Testament even mentions gentiles

The Old Testament refers specifically to the Jews as gentiles. Your translations probably doesn't. You have to look at the original language.

Romans 11: 17

Romans 11:17 is nonsense, if you read it closely that is.

I think this is pretty obvious, and your just looking for an argument.

I think you are just looking for an excuse not to answer my questions.

Christians are called Christians because we believe Jesus is the Christ the Messiah. Todays Jews, the Non-Messianic Jews, do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, but Messianic Jews do.

Messianic Jews are not recognized as Jews either by the Jews or by Christians. They are in their own little world. They are just one of many Christian sects or better yet cults.

They also practice Judaism, because REAL Judaism never ended with Jesus, it continued.

You can't be a Jew and worship another God, even if you observe Jewish festivals. Judaism does not recognize Christ as God.

The Apostle also didn't prey to Jesus! No one calls him God, except John and he wrote way after Judaism and Christianity parted ways. Paul specifically says there is but one God, the Father. There is no one else he calls God. Lord is not only a divine title. Anyone who is appointed above anyone else is his lord. Paul also says that the head of Christ is God. Read your Bible closely, practice what you preach.

Judaism DOES NOT reject Christ, it points TO Christ.

If retro interpreted based on the NT, using OT references based on Septuagint and out of order and context. Muslims also claim Isaiah mentions Mohamed. Whatever.

The prophecies of the Old Testament point to a coming Messiah

Jewish messiah (and only apocalyptic Jews believed in him) was supposed to be a human being, not god.

Messianic Jews believe Jesus is the fulfilment of that prophecy

So, then they don't believe Jesus is God?

When talking about Judaism its important to know and note the difference

No, FRiend, Judaism does not accept Christ in any form or shape. No Jewish sect believes messiah has arrived. The conditions are not right. messianic Jews are Christians, not Jews.

Its important to understand, Yes, the Jewish holidays, are feasts commanded by God. But instead of looking at these simply as Laws that must be obeyed or observed, we should see them as they REALLY ARE.

Well, the Law doesn't apply to Christians. So they are under no obligation to keep them.

These Celebrations are to celebrate what God has done for the people of Israel.

What has he done for the people of Israel? I can think of a lot horrible things too.

26 posted on 12/27/2009 9:17:34 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: mountn man
I think ALL of Romans 11 is great for truely understanding how jews and gentiles fit into Christianity. Its something I always seem to learn more from every time I read it.

Then I would call it Paulianity. It's a common affliction among Christians. Paul did not teach what Jesus taught in the Gospels. He taught his own.

27 posted on 12/27/2009 9:21:09 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012

Only Christians pray the Lord’s Prayer even if they dress it in Jewish garbs. Matthew was written in Greek.


28 posted on 12/27/2009 9:22:59 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: onedoug
Jesus was a Jew.

Rejected by Judaism, a blapshemer in Jewish eyes.

29 posted on 12/27/2009 9:24:45 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: Kolokotronis
That said, Greeks and Jews together make the perfect combo since we are both Chosen People of God

You're starting to sound like those blasted Calvinists /grump.

30 posted on 12/27/2009 9:29:11 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: kosta50
Only Christians pray the Lord’s Prayer even if they dress it in Jewish garbs. Matthew was written in Greek.

Peter, John, Matthew, Jude, Mark, Luke and Paul were Messianic Jews.

And OBTW so was and is Yah'shua.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
31 posted on 12/27/2009 9:29:22 AM PST by Uriĺel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: kosta50

And the Romans were just there on holiday, right?


32 posted on 12/27/2009 9:32:20 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012
Peter, John, Matthew, Jude, Mark, Luke and Paul were Messianic Jews. And OBTW so was and is Yah'shua.

All rejected by Israel and thrown out of the synagogues. You may wish to read John's Gospel; it's not something you'd expect from a Jew. In fact he treats the Jews as definitely not the same kind as himself.

33 posted on 12/27/2009 9:36:52 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: onedoug
The Romans did not find Jesus guilty of anything. Pilate washed his hands of that issue. The Romans were the only legitimate authority and they acted as the Sanhedrin demanded, apparently with lost of local support.
34 posted on 12/27/2009 9:39:35 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: kosta50; onedoug

od>Jesus was a Jew.

Rejected by Judaism, a blapshemer in Jewish eyes.

29 posted on December 27, 2009 10:24:45 AM MST by kosta50


You might want to ask the Ru'ach HaKodesh to illuminate Romans 11.

Very specifically: Romans 11 where Paul discusses who is grafted into whom.

NAsbU Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off,
and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them
and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,


NAsbU Romans 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off
so that I might be grafted in."

Paul warns against the pride of a Gentile follower of Yah'shua.

NAsbU Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God;
to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

NAsbU Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief,
will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

A Jew who comes to know the Jewish Messiah for their salvation
does not become a Christian,
They become a "called out one", a member of the Ekklesia.
They become a Messianic Jew.
The L-rd's name ( SHEM ) is not je-zeus;
it is Yah'shua ( YHvH is my salvation )


NAsbU Romans 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Which is why you must call on His Name for salvation.
See Exod. 15:2; 2 Sam. 23:5; Job 19:25 Ps. 18:2; 19:14; 62:1, 7; 118:14 Isa. 12:2; Isa 49:6; Isa 54:8
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
35 posted on 12/27/2009 9:40:33 AM PST by Uriĺel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012
Peter, John, Matthew, Jude, Mark, Luke and Paul were Messianic Jews.

When they came to believe in Jesus as Christ, Son of God, our Lord and Savior, they became Christians, fathers of the Catholic Church, and Saints, every one.

36 posted on 12/27/2009 9:41:13 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012

Jesus was considered a heretic. The Jews no more consider his teachings to be worthy of consideration or belief than they do those of Elisha ben Abuyah.


37 posted on 12/27/2009 9:41:13 AM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012
...The L-rd's name ( SHEM ) is not je-zeus...

Je-zeus?

Really?

You should delete this one from your cut-and-paste queue.

It's really rather batty.

38 posted on 12/27/2009 9:43:17 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski
U-2012>Peter, John, Matthew, Jude, Mark, Luke and Paul were Messianic Jews.

When they came to believe in Jesus as Christ, Son of God, our Lord and Savior, they became Christians, fathers of the Catholic Church, and Saints, every one.

One day you will come to reject the myths.

The catholic church was started in the fourth century
at Nicea run by a Pagan.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
39 posted on 12/27/2009 9:49:39 AM PST by Uriĺel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: kosta50
Hyam Maccoby, Revolution In Judaea: Jesus And The Jewish Resistance
40 posted on 12/27/2009 9:56:59 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012
One day you will come to reject the myths.

As a non-Christian, do you consider Christianity a myth? Do you expect me to reject that?

The catholic church was started in the fourth century at Nicea run by a Pagan.

I can certainly expect a non-Christian to want to rewrite Christian history like that, but you meet with EPIC FAIL.

Christ walked the earth in the first century. That's why we call it the first century.

41 posted on 12/27/2009 10:04:59 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski
I guess there are those who are vincibly ignorant
and will require Yah'shua to disabuse them of their myths.

42 posted on 12/27/2009 10:13:19 AM PST by Uriĺel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: onedoug
Hyam Maccoby, Revolution In Judaea: Jesus And The Jewish Resistanc

For all to know who Hyam Maccoby was and what he believed. Is this your hero? He says Judas Iscariot was a Christian invention?

43 posted on 12/27/2009 10:16:11 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012

Do Messianic Jews believe Jesus is God? Yes or no?


44 posted on 12/27/2009 10:17:20 AM PST by kosta50 (Don't look up -- the truth is all around you.)
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012

Jesus Christ will disabuse me of my Christianity?

LOLROFLMTO!


45 posted on 12/27/2009 10:18:28 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Uri┬ĺel-2012

As a non-Christian, do you consider Christianity a myth? Do you expect me to reject that?


46 posted on 12/27/2009 10:19:06 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: kosta50
Yes

47 posted on 12/27/2009 10:19:15 AM PST by Uriĺel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Te├│filo

Beautiful and very interesting to me. I was surprised for instance to hear that I believe Catholics (I forget which Christians, I think it’s Catholics) use a version of the Priestly Blessing, which we use to bless our children weekly. I think that MOST of the Jewish prayers would be satisfying to Christians because they are prayers to our same, One and Only, G-d. Since you also have Jesus, you can add your own to it.


48 posted on 12/27/2009 10:24:35 AM PST by Yaelle
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To: kosta50

Interesting conjecture considering the inconsistancy and differences, ommissions, etc. of the Gospels on quite a few counts; and that the cruel and bungling Pilate would have released a prisoner, ie., the “Passover Privalege”, without consultation with Rome is equally intriguing.

Iscariot: dagger man....

Quite fascinating.

As for myself, I think Jesus was an interesting rabbi, that is, a Pharisee, but not divine. I believe in the strict “oneness” of God. Not two, nor three, nor...what you will.


49 posted on 12/27/2009 10:44:21 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Te├│filo; kosta50; MarkBsnr
"However, that raises the question if Jews are saved through observance of the Old Covenant, apart from Christ."

Oh, you know, T, I worked long and hard to stop setting the rules for God and at my advanced age I have pretty much succeeded so I have no definite idea about that. My gut says yes, they are saved by observance of the Old Covenant which cannot be "apart from Christ" since "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" but I don't know; way, way above my pay grade, my friend.

"Different perceptions of a phenomenon whose underlying Reality is the same, K."

So the priests and the rabbis around here in my youth always said.

50 posted on 12/27/2009 10:46:16 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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