Posted on 03/03/2010 6:43:03 AM PST by marshmallow
Apparently they want a liturgy "which people can easily follow". As if the liturgy is a) ours to tinker and monkey with in any way we please and b)designed to be like reading a newspaper or the instructions on a packet of soup.
The terms "mystery", "sacred" and "sacrifice" are meaningless to these barbarians.
There will be a Vatican III somewhere around the ‘30s.
By their fruits you will know them. Wolves in sheep’s (read shepherd’s) clothing.
The modernists of Vatican II and those that followed them have monkeyed and tinkered with the liturgy to the point that it is incomprehensible as liturgy worthy of worship of Jesus Christ.
It is very close to what passes for liturgy in the Methodist Church!
What passes for a Catholic Church today looks more like a vast, vacant airplane hangar.
Today's so-called leaders and recent Popes have much explaining to do to their maker at the time of judgment!
Bookmarking to read later.
Just curious why you didn’t make this a catholic caucus thread since it’s nobody’s business but Roman Catholics.
I'm not sure whether they're really worth the trouble, anyway. Recently there have been cases where threads were "caucused" and those who wanted to discuss the issue but were excluded by virtue of the "caucus" tag simply reposted the thread without the tag.
I gather you have strong convictions about the matters involved.
What a surprise! LOL.
I found these paragraphs particularly poignant:
##################
In contrast, Vatican II used “empowerment words,” words of reciprocity and persuasion as different from commands and anathemas. “There is scarcely a page in the council documents on which ‘dialogue’ or its equivalent does not occur. ‘Dialogue’ manifests a radical shift from the prophetic I-say-unto-you style that earlier prevailed and indicates something other than unilateral decision-making.” Such language, writes O’Malley, did not make it into the documents “without a fierce battle.” Things, indeed, were different about Vatican II at a fundamental level. Whether that difference is expressed in a hermeneutic of discontinuity or of renewal is a battle that still rages, along with, in some circles, the original fight over the language itself. O’Malley’s view, of course, is that of one person. But it is widely seen, if the reviews are to be believed, as an updated and valuable articulation of the segment of the church that believes that the council represented significant change from previous ways of doing church business. O’Malley’s analysis was important enough in the eyes of those advocating the hermeneutic of continuity to draw considerable attention from conservatives, not least of which was the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus in the October 2008 issue of his magazine, First Things. He disapprovingly termed O’Malley’s book “a 372-page brief for the party of novelty and discontinuity.” He declared at review’s end that the 2008 book Vatican II: Renewal Within Tradition, edited by Matthew L. Lamb and Matthew Levering and offering an opposing view from O’Malley’s, makes “it evident that the hermeneutics of continuity is prevailing, if it has not already definitively prevailed.” How the scorecard ultimately nets out is probably more complex than the scoring system for Olympic figure skating. Longtime Catholic church observer and former New York Times columnist Peter Steinfels, reviewing the O’Malley book in December 2008, notes that the world’s bishops 50 years ago could have simply “rubberstamped a series of routine texts prepared under Vatican oversight and gone home.” “How the bishops took charge of the agenda and radically reshaped the outcome is a story of bold confrontations, clashing personalities and behind-the-scenes maneuvers,” he writes. Acknowledging that some, claiming an elusive “spirit of the council,” have used the event to stake claim to changes well beyond any imagined by the council’s participants, Steinfels nonetheless argues that “any effort to shuffle the cards of continuity and discontinuity so as to minimize the profound reorientation wrought by the council borders on the ludicrous.” If, indeed, a “profound reorientation” occurred because of the council, what does that mean today? And does the talk of a need to relearn language an attempt to return to, for lack of a more nuanced phrase, a pre-Vatican II reality? Morlino’s comments would certainly suggest such a course as would the later words of Rodé, who said in an interview with NCR that Vatican II precipitated “the greatest crisis in church history” (NCR, Oct. 30).
imho,
A lot of Prottys and particularly Pentecostals would be loathe, in a lot of quarters and senses, to admit to much liturgy in any stiffly formal or even persistently dogmatic sense.
However, Prottys, contrary to some Vatican perspectives, are human, too. The same pernicious tendencies afflict them individually and en masse, too, as afflicted the RELIGIOUS leaders 2000 years ago.
A leader says something. Or maybe even a leader declares something in the founding of a congregation . . . or maybe when the torch is passed from one aged head pastor to a new generation. There are new memes, customs, phrases that take the spotlight . . . and that become MORE RIGHTEOUS than older ones.
Or maybe just slowly by osmosis, ways of doing things become deeply entrenched as though Christ spoke in KJV English and as though all Heaven marches in lock step with the specific ways that congregation does things.
Yet, what is the New Testament model?
What did Christ come as man, as God-man, as God and DIE for?
To embellish, gild, affirm, buttress, expand, multiply
NOT on HIS Life!
Certainly He fulfilled The Law.
He also TURNED UPSIDE DOWN AND INSIDE OUT
What RELIGIOUS accoutraments have imposed themselves between GOD AND MAN afresh, with DEADLY ENGULFMENT?
Really, it's more like . . . what RELIGIOUS accoutraments have imposed themselves between GOD AND MAN corruptively 'a-mouldy' with DEADLY ENGULFMENT?
Where has
THE ROT,
THE FOSSILIZATION,
THE SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENTS,
THE GLORIFICATION OF RITUALIZED PULLING-OURSELVES-UP-BY-OUR OWN-BOOTSTRAPS,
THE PSEUDO-SANCTIFICATION OF FLESH SATURATED GOING-THROUGH-THE-MOTIONS,
THE ELABORATE MICRO-METER THICK PSEUDO-SPIRITUALITY,
THE PRISSING, PRANCING, PONTIFICATING, PARAPHERNALIA-SATURATED PARASITISM,
.
TAKEN INSIDIOUS ROOT . . . YET AGAIN!??!
It has been my observation that individuals who PUT GOD HEART-FIRST manage to do so regardless of the accoutraments--though they may be more or less comfortable when squeezed into doing their SPIRITUAL [vs RELIGIOUS] observances through particular memes, customs, rituals. Somehow, they will manage to FOCUS ON GOD SUPREMELY REGARDLESS.
Some, because of personality and personal/family history variables and factors will be hindered to annoyed by a lot of ritualized fuss and 'requirements.' Others will feel carried away on the pomp and circumstance as though on angelic wings to the lap of God--somehow without being seduced & entrapped, like so many, by the same pomp and circumstance.
However, there are a LOT of folks who are neither hot nor cold . . . who wander the mid-range of spirituality and who are ripe to be seduced, entrapped and raped with deadly results by the shallow [though often gilded] FORM(s) OF RELIGION that denies the POWER OF GOD THEREOF.
Leaders who encourage, countenance, support, promulgate, proffer such hideousness will find they are unable to pay even 1% of the tax on such hideousness.
Christ did not come and DIE . . . and rend the curtain . . . only to have a repeat performance of the same DISTANCING-FROM-THE-FATHER STUFF FLOOD BACK IN.
However, without and too often within each of us are the world, the flesh and the devil . . . READY AND MOST EAGER to open the FLOOD GATES on just such a flood.
WHEN RELIGIOUS [particularly when they pretend to be spiritual or super spiritual] leaders, structures and systems aid and abet such a flood . . . the evil DISTANCING stuff has a field day, an orgy of deadliness. . . . all wrapped in the best gilding and most saintly LOOKING, sounding, feeling accoutraments.
I think I used to minimize the import of Alamo-Girl's wholesale beyond disdain for ALL the doctrines of man.
I've increasingly come to be utterly convinced that her perspective is 100% spot on.
There's NO ROOM in the heart, mind, spirit, life of one FOCUSED UTTERLY, FOREMOST AND COMPLETELY ON GOD FIRST, LAST AND ALWAYS to be bogged down in the deadly smelly muck of the wood, hay and stubble of the doctrines of man.
One can gild a horse biscuit. It's still a horse biscuit hiding in a very thin layer of gold.
Oh, I know . . .
YOU [generic you/your in this post] AND YOUR IN-GROUP have NO such doctrines of men.
'YOUR' IN-GROUP has been sanctified and perfectly, flawlessly righteous from before Adam as all your lofted noses attest.
It's only those OUT-GROUP PSEUDO-'CHRISTIANS' OVER THERE who have such problems with deadly unrighteous RELIGIOUS RITUALS AND THE LIKE.
Raaaaahhhhhhhhhggggggt. /sar
I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are more numerous. ( St. John Chrysostom)
They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)
They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)
I’ve observed that it seems to be extremely difficult
to stay focused intensely enough and
with proper focus enough ON GOD AND HIS PRIORITIES;
ON GOD FIRST LAST AND FOREMOST
SUFFICIENTLY
day in and day out
in ANY CHRISTIAN congregation or organization
for HIS ANOINTING TO ABIDE over an even moderate period of time—too often—even a short period of time.
Some months ago, God’s MANIFEST PRESENCE was showing up virtually every service in a big way with folks being healed and delivered rather routinely; lives being rescued from alcoholism and other dreadful stuff; relationships being healed etc.
And, certainly the leadership has had every heart motivation to facilitate such continuing whether the Pastor and Preaching were more or less sidelined by GOD’S MANIFEST PRESENCE, or not.
Yet, the rot of the routine has set in again. And Holy Spirit has pulled way back. There’s an inkling that maybe on Wed evening with a much smaller group, that our focus is again getting aligned aright sufficiently for HIM to Mainfest HIS OVERT DOINGS yet again. Has been so a couple of Wednesday evenings now. We shall see.
The Old Testament had many examples of Israel getting off on their focus and resulting distancing from God.
It’s evident in the New Testament, too but not always so starkly so.
I tend to think that the Catholic church in the US is much more liberalized than in other parts of the world. Although I’m not Catholic, my wife is a Catholic from Italy, and when we go to mass here in the US, she is totally shocked. She says that what goes on here (campfire songs, electric guitars, drums, jokes by the priest, watered-down liturgy, women serving communion, etc) would never fly in Italy. Needless to say she feels like a fish out of water and is rather distressed by it. I’m going to try taking her to a church with the traditional Latin mass and see if that’s an improvement.
And your Italian wife can tell you that less than 30% of the Italian population actually goes to mass on a regular basis.
It is true, however, that the liturgy is more "liberal" in the Americas and in Australia than it is in the Phillipines or even Germany. Nevertheless, I have seen the hippy dippy guitar masses firsthand in Austria and Spain, back when I used to be Catholic.
Good for you. The TLM will be no different than a TLM in Italy or anywhere else. I understand that contemporary Masses in Europe vary considerably and Spain has had some real doozies.
“The “reform of the reform” has the NCR all in a tizz!”
Pity. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is making a return in a huge way too.
For all their work plugging a dike with one’s finger, the Holy Spirit makes a mockery of their milksop and Christ’s own Church prevails again over the barbarians.
( I think you left out the attribution. This was first said by Howard Dean, I believe.)
Alamo girl already knows that I think that some of "sacred tradition" is "sacred" because it is not "of men." If we can agree to let that slide, then I also agree with her.
I will also have to "postulate" that the sacraments of the Catholic Church are what I call "reliable." They are not "exclusive." That is, for example, you do not have to go to confession to be forgiven, but if you go to confession, truly (if only partially) contrite and all the rest, you are reliably forgiven.
Then some of the "hocus pocus" can be viewed as a kind of guarantee that this particular sacrament has been "confected."
But that doesn't mean it's magic, in this way. Aquinas has a nice pair of personal prayers for before and after Mass. They both include the sense that "I" need some grace in me for the "real" (or "reliable") sacrament to be for my good, and not my condemnation.
All of this is stuff to sweep out of the way.
And it is very important to say that however much mercy we can imagine, God always has more and GIVES more.
So NOW I can try to address what you say. Some of my favorite Masses are those which are simplest. Simple church, minimal vestments, minimal ceremonial. The Rite (that is the "word" part) can be, at least to those who have studied liturgy, VERY simple, almost bald. Short prayer. Short prayer for forgiveness.
Reading from Bible, Psalm, Reading from one of the Gospels, Homily, prayers for the Church and the world (can be made up on the spot by the priest and room is given for the people to add their particular concerns).
"lay the table" (get bread, wine+water)
Pray, remembering aloud the Last Supper.
Lord's Prayer
Prayer for peace, and People in the congregation greet one another.
"fraction" (that is breaking of the bread)
Communion
clean up
Prayer
Blessing and Dismissal.
It can be done in a dignified way in 25 minutes, or even fewer!
There is no question that even that can be a distraction for some. It is easy for a kind of liturgical aesthete to be so concerned with HOW all this is done, that, well, you hardly ever hear them talking about the Mercy of God. Something is definitely wrong there.
But both in the moment and obviously, or much less later and discerned almost (as it were) by chance, one can find that "a great thing happened here."
AND it can be great and holy fun. Our Easter Vigil is wonderful ... tacky but wonderful! After the lighting of the new fire outside, and bringing the huge and heavy paschal candle into the church, as we all file in with our little candles, there is a wonderful solo hymn sung to ask God to bless the candle. Then there are many readings of the mighty saving acts of God in ancient times. Between are psalms and hymns.
Then, as the organ plays a fanfare which shakes the foundations, the lights are all lit, a huge banner is unfurled which says "Worthy is the Lamb." Ladies come from all directions with pots and pots of flowers and surround the altar in a sea of lilies and other flowers. Other flowers are placed at other places in the church. We all sing what for these forty days I call "the A-word" (work on it.)
And I tend to burst into tears.
And that's just the beginning! We read "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us." We sing more A-words. We read the Easter Proclamation.
Then we baptize the converts, and receive and confirm those already baptized but coming "into full communion."
And then the Mass continues with sermon and prayers and all the rest.
It takes about 2.5 - 3 hours. There is incense -- lots of incense. There is ceremonial. There are bells, little bells and big bells. We are putting on the dog and having a PARTY! There are tears of joy.
And yes, there are splendid silks and linens, and many arts are represented. Trumpets and timpanies!
In a way it could be called "formal." I mean, for example, it is so artificial not to say the A-word for all of Lent. We are always rejoicing. Paul tells us to.
But to say it after a 40 day fast from saying it, and to remember what event makes the A-word always appropriate ... well, it's pretty good stuff.
How this touches Vatican II is maybe not so clear. At least not to me. I guess the thing is like this. In The Great Divorce Lewis points out that some can be so involved with collecting books that they never read. Some can be so concerned for helping the poor that they never notice that they've lost all charity for the poor person down the street. And some can be so tied up in the wording of this or that document, or even in the importance of this or that teaching (which is, truly, important) that they forget that, well, theology is one thing, and God is quite another -- something ELSE!
And I would say that, maybe, that is not the fault of theology, but of some theologians. It is only the grace of God which can make us humble. No amount of studying all the writers about humility can do that. But its not bad to study those writers, while it is disastrous to forget that without grace much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Enough. I think at bottom we are in agreement. God is in heaven, whatever He will to do He does -- and He wills to love us! May He be praised forever.
A-word. Definitely A-word!
Sometimes it’s amazing how much and how persistently I agree with you.
This was one of those posts.
Thanks.
Psst. Please don’t tell anyone . . . SOMETIMES even I can enjoy pagentry, pomp and circumstance.
I’m really looking forward to the REAL THING, however, the MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB.
Everything else is shabby dress rehearsal.
NOPE.
Y’ALL ARE WRONG AGAIN.
Bump.
Thanks for posting this interesting thread.
NO THANKS for not making it a caucus thread.
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