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Muslim modesty: Head coverings a symbol of faith or oppression? (Mormon Times Article)OPEN
Mormon Times ^ | March 22, 2010 | Nicole Warburton

Posted on 03/22/2010 2:46:52 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

Muslim modesty: Head coverings a symbol of faith or oppression?

By Nicole Warburton

Deseret News
Published: 2009-08-22 00:54:18

It is probably one of the most visible and controversial symbols of Islam.

Westerners often view the hijab, or head covering, worn by Muslim women as oppressive. Even among members of the Islamic faith, it is subject of debate.

How should it be worn?

Does it need to be worn?

Is it a choice or requirement?

In recent months, the hijab and other forms of Islamic coverings have come under scrutiny in the media and by politicians. In June, French president Nicolas Sarkozy suggested women who completely cover their faces by wearing burqas are silent prisoners and that the practice is a "debasement of women."

Those comments have translated into debate over why Muslim women cover at all.

For Maysa Kergaye, coordinator of the Utah Islamic Speakers Bureau, the reason to veil is simple: It's a requirement of the Islamic religion. Beyond that, it is something that serves as a reminder of her beliefs and a "shield" to help protect her from doing the wrong things and being in the wrong place.

Kergaye said she does not feel diminished as result of wearing her hijab.

"Islam actually came and liberated women," she said. "It said they are equal and should not be viewed as a piece of meat. They're humans. They are individuals who do not have to sell their body. They should use their brains."

The tradition of women veiling their heads has been around for centuries, even among early Christians, according to Frank Griffel, professor of Islamic Studies at Yale University. The rules for its use among members of the Islamic faith can be found in Sura 24 of the Quran, where both men and women are told to guard their modesty.

In regard to women, it reads: "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms." The rest of the scripture clarifies that women only need to cover in front of males who are not family.

Because the verses are not explicit, there are a few Muslims who believe modesty does not require covering, however, religious text clarifies it beyond any doubt, according to Kergaye. Some cultures are more liberal, while others have more conservative methods of dress and types of headscarves.

But in the United States, where Muslims are a clear minority, there are challenges to wearing something as visible as the hijab, according to Sarah Ahmad, a junior at Weber State University and former president of the WSU Muslim Student Association.

She has heard stories of women getting turned down for jobs as result of their head covering. And Ahmad believes people view Muslims who cover their heads differently than if they don't cover.

She currently does not wear a head covering but wants to in the future. She is worried she would experience prejudice.

"I feel that it is something that would add a whole new complexity to what I do," said Ahmad, who grew up in Brigham City. "I question myself if I am ready to do that."

But she doesn't view the covering as oppressive. In fact, her sister Maryam, who is 17, said her parents have encouraged her to wait until she is 18 years old to cover because they don't want people to think she is being forced to do it.

"I know Muslim women in the West, we think it's insulting for people to assume we are forced to wear it," Maryam said. "We don't want people to assume we have no free will. It is our decision."

In her view, wearing a hijab is a way to actually help women focus more on themselves versus outward physical appearance.

People are also more likely to judge a Muslim woman on character versus looks if she dresses modestly, said Maryam.

"Society wants women to have shiny hair, to be thin and have nice skin," she said. "You see teen girls bingeing and throwing up food, suffering from self-esteem issues and I always wonder how that is not a form of oppression."

Jen'nan Read, associate professor of sociology and global health at Duke University, said she believes one of the reasons people have misconceptions about Muslims in the U.S. is because there are so few members of the faith here to fight the myths.

Oftentimes, the only information people have is from the news, where stories frequently run about women who are oppressed as result of cultural practices, not the Islamic faith, Read said.

"The religion has been linked with terrorism and with gender roles," she said. "We all compartmentalize and I think for the average person it is easy to immediately jump to the wrong conclusion."

From her perspective, the key to removing prejudices is for more contact between Muslims and non-Muslims. And in fact, women such as the Ahmad sisters and Kergaye encourage questions.

"Many people have the wrong idea of Islam," said Kergaye. "I'd rather answer a question than have someone go on having the wrong understanding."


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Other non-Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: beck; christian; glennbeck; lds; mormon; mormon1; muslim
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To: Logophile

Read the rest of the post ... a family ......it was a plural statement ... “I lived with a Mormon family and ......” I couldn’t state Mormons although it was the case when you’re sitting around chatting about LDS theology ....


51 posted on 03/22/2010 7:12:15 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: Colofornian; greyfoxx39
From lds.org under the heading of Salvation. (which goes on to explain that Mormons use the word "salvation" in many different ways)

Eternal Life, or Exaltation. In the scriptures, the words saved and salvation often refer to eternal life, or exaltation (see Abraham 2:11). Eternal life is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever—to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (see John 17:3; D&C 131:1–4; 132:21–24). This exaltation requires that men receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, and that all Church members make and keep sacred covenants in the temple, including the covenant of eternal marriage. If the word salvation is used in this sense, no one is saved in mortality. That glorious gift comes only after the Final Judgment.

52 posted on 03/22/2010 7:12:48 PM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: greyfoxx39

There aren’t enough body parts on a woman to cover - or “shame up” to cover for the horrible way Muslim men act.


53 posted on 03/22/2010 7:31:15 PM PDT by GOPJ (http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/index2.php?area=dam&lang=eng)
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To: greyfoxx39
Well, most folks are interested in what happens "after resurrection".

And I am more than happy to talk to anyone who is interested in the subject.

If we can agree that (according to LDS doctrine) everyone will be resurrected, then we can proceed to discuss LDS teachings regarding the Final Judgement.

It would be interesting to compare and contrast LDS teachings with traditional Christian theology.

54 posted on 03/22/2010 7:33:10 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Tennessee Nana

for years, Christian woman wore veils or head coverings after marriage , out of modesty...and according to local custom.

by Canon law, Catholic women are still supposed to cover their head in church...

The Amish and Mennonite women still wear a modest bonnet.


55 posted on 03/22/2010 7:37:09 PM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: Colofornian
More importantly, the Mormon version of the "atonement" doesn't even address the primary outcome of it! Full reconciliation with God!

Actually, we do address that as well.

The very word "atonement" was developed as a combo word -- at-one-ment -- meaning harmony, reconciliation. Mormons say, "See, we're giving away atonement to all!" -- yet when you ask them who will living forever in the presence of the Father -- is that "all?" (Nope)

Yes, I am aware of the meaning of the word. And no, we do not say that all will be reconciled with God or live in the presence of the Father.

We do say that the offer of reconciliation is presented to everyone, without exception. As you know, God is no respecter of persons. We are sadly aware that not everyone will accept.

56 posted on 03/22/2010 7:52:32 PM PDT by Logophile
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To: Logophile; SkyDancer

We believe that every person who has lived and died — man, woman, or child — will be resurrected. It is a free and unconditional gift from God, and cannot be withheld by anyone else.

- - - - - —
This is what Mormons mean when they say they believed they are ‘saved by grace’. Saved to Mormons = resurrection. Getting back into the presence of God the Father requires works and LDS church membership.

The husbands are still the ones who call their wives forth, that is the point of him calling her through the veil at the temple (at least prior to the 1990 changes).


57 posted on 03/22/2010 10:30:21 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Logophile; SkyDancer

I have not found in them any hint that a man can determine whether his wife is resurrected.

- - - - - -
Temple rituals (which aren’t in the LDS scriptures either).

I can post a link to the text if you would like?


58 posted on 03/22/2010 10:32:14 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: greyfoxx39

Though he supplicated his Father for aid at the eleventh hour, the final victory over death was earned by the Son.

- - - - - - -

This is OFFENSIVE beyond belief. Christ EARNED it?!?!


59 posted on 03/22/2010 10:34:04 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Logophile; greyfoxx39

The statement was made that a husband could prevent a wife from being resurrected.

- - - - - -
She does need him (or did) to call her forth to the Celestial Kingdom. Back to the Temple endowment. And I know many LDS men who hold that over their wives head.

Also, FWIW, Sandra Tanner’s sources and writings are impeccable and better than many LDS authors. I have vetted the Tanners sources myself.


60 posted on 03/22/2010 10:37:37 PM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: SkyDancer

Tanner .... just forget it.


61 posted on 03/23/2010 12:06:19 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: SkyDancer

Tanners are not anti-Mormon

When did they change ?


62 posted on 03/23/2010 12:11:14 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: svcw
 
There sure is an infinity between mormons and muslims.
 
Golly!
I wonder WHY???



 

 

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1] 

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith’s followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith’s own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith’s claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith  & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.


63 posted on 03/23/2010 4:50:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tennessee Nana

While PRAYING - not ALL THE TIME!

64 posted on 03/23/2010 4:53:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Domandred
 
Don’t think LDS women were stoned or beheaded for not wearing a veil ...
 
 
SOME of them sure got a STERN warning about things: Directly from GOD!
 

 
 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
 
  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice
 
 
 
 

Whatever HAPPENED to Emma???
 
Eliza was a devout Mormon. At age 38, she became Joseph Smith's 14th plural wife (in addition to Smith's lawful wife, Emma). In 1842, after learning Eliza was pregnant, Emma Smith beat Eliza with a broomstick and knocked her down a flight of stairs, causing Eliza to miscarry Smith's baby.
 
 
Wow!!
 
 
I guess ol' Emma got VAPORIZED by GOD!!!
 
 
We know that multiply him thing sure didn't work out!

65 posted on 03/23/2010 4:55:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Moslem women are seen by moslem men as cattle.always have been...always will be.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon507.htm


66 posted on 03/23/2010 5:01:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
We believe that every person who has lived and died -- man, woman, or child -- will be resurrected.

Well big deal...

...who DON'T?

It's IN THE BIBLE!

 
 

Revelation 20:11-15

 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
 Daniel 12:2
 
Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.

67 posted on 03/23/2010 5:29:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
I have not found in them any hint that a man can determine whether his wife is resurrected.

 

 
 
Actually; there IS one more thing I want to 'learn'.
 
Just WHERE, in the BoM, can the FULLNESS of the GOSPEL be found?

68 posted on 03/23/2010 5:37:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile; All
You linked to an article by the professional anti-Mormon Sandra Tanner;

Hey Inmans!!

Are we mere amateurs or at least SEMI-pros?

69 posted on 03/23/2010 5:39:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SkyDancer
... and the Tanners are not anti-Mormon.

I must be PRO-Mormion then; for I post all KINDS of things the MORMON Organization has printed over the years!

70 posted on 03/23/2010 5:40:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
Just one?

It only takes one.

No MORMON questions the things the Joseph Smith has said or written; do they?

71 posted on 03/23/2010 5:42:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
If the word salvation is used in this sense, no one is saved in mortality.

 
Oh???
 
 

NIV Philippians 4:3
   Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
 

NIV Revelation 3:5
   He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
 

NIV Revelation 13:8-9
 8.  All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
 9.  He who has an ear, let him hear.
 

NIV Revelation 17:8
   The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Revelation 20
 
 1.  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
 2.  He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
 3.  He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
 4.  I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5.  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
 6.  Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 7.  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
 8.  and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
 9.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
 10.  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 11.  Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
 12.  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
 13.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
 14.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
 15.  If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
 
 

NIV Revelation 21:27
   Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
 
Is YOUR name written there?

72 posted on 03/23/2010 5:48:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Logophile
 
If we can agree that (according to LDS doctrine) everyone will be resurrected, then we can proceed to discuss LDS teachings regarding the Final Judgement.
 
 
Since we CAN'T agree that MORMONism was founded on the words of two lying angels of light; why should we discuss anything else?




 
KJV
 Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
 
 
 
ANYBODY???
 
Like this fine looking fellow???
 
 
 
 
 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 
 

Like THESE guys??
 
 
 
 
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
 
 


 
Ephesians 2:1-2 
1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:


 
1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
 
2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
 
2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

73 posted on 03/23/2010 5:50:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueMoose
Tanner .... just forget it.

BIBLE ... just ignore it.

74 posted on 03/23/2010 5:52:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw

bitttt


75 posted on 03/23/2010 6:29:37 AM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: tbw2

The Mormon church didn’t. Just another false statement equating individual members with the church as a whole. There were members on both sides. Just like any other church in Germany. Hell there were even Jewish Nazi sympathizers, how did that work out?


76 posted on 03/23/2010 6:35:55 AM PDT by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: Domandred
Why would that surprise you. lds align themselves today with muslims.
77 posted on 03/23/2010 6:46:03 AM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: reaganaut
Though he supplicated his Father for aid at the eleventh hour, the final victory over death was earned by the Son.

You caught that, eh?

78 posted on 03/23/2010 7:18:06 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes.)
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To: Elsie

Hi and Good Morning - Ok, I can understand you’re pro-Mormon. I’m pro-Christian. The Tanners were never anti-Mormon. They were anti-Mormon theology - big difference.
R/Jane


79 posted on 03/23/2010 8:56:24 AM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: SkyDancer

Wow...did you ever take a wrong turn.


80 posted on 03/23/2010 8:57:15 AM PDT by Osage Orange (A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. - Sigmund Freud)
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To: Osage Orange

Sorry but no I didn’t ... I’ve had many discussions with my Mormon family about this and other ‘sacraments’ ... the patriarch of the family is a bishop in his ward. I’ve attended classes at his local stake when invited to attend. I know more about Mormon theology than most Mormons. My host said that for someone who is not a Mormon that I know more about Mormonism than the average Mormon. He has told missionary’s who come to the home not to get into a theological debate with me because they’d loose ... he has on occasion complimented me on my knowledge of LDS theology.


81 posted on 03/23/2010 9:09:04 AM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: SENTINEL

Yes

...Except that Ishmael was the son of Hagar and Abraham, while Isaac was the son on Abraham and Sarah.

This is where the mohammadans pervert the patriarchy, claiming that G_d’s covenant and blessing were upon Ishmael, while Isaac was only the recipient of G_d’s blessing - not the other way around.

They also claim that the Lord never directed Abraham to climb the mountain and sacrifice Isaac, as well as saying that Jesus was not crucified - because G_d would have never allowed men to kill a prophet.

All of which is equally as ridiculous as claiming that the fall in the garden of Eden was actually a “Wise Choice”...

A.A.C.


82 posted on 03/23/2010 9:30:27 AM PDT by AmericanArchConservative (Armour on, Lances high, Swords out, Bows drawn, Shields front ... Eagles UP!)
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To: Domandred; tbw2; Colofornian; greyfoxx39

The Mormon church didn’t. Just another false statement equating individual members with the church as a whole.

- - - - - - - - -

Actually the leadership DID support the Nazis even staing how wonderful they were and sending GA’s to Hitler in hopes that the Mormons would not be seen as a threat to the Nazis and thus left alone.

Research it (not just LDS sources) before you assume it is a ‘false statement’.


83 posted on 03/23/2010 9:42:57 AM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: SkyDancer; Osage Orange; Elsie

I think what OO meant by ‘wrong turn’ was you accused our ELSIE of being pro LDS.


84 posted on 03/23/2010 9:48:15 AM PDT by reaganaut (ex-mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Well OO should have stated what he/she meant ...


85 posted on 03/23/2010 9:53:50 AM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: reaganaut; SkyDancer

That would be correct.............


86 posted on 03/23/2010 9:59:15 AM PDT by Osage Orange (A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. - Sigmund Freud)
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placemark


87 posted on 03/23/2010 10:08:12 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: svcw

bitttt


88 posted on 03/23/2010 10:37:17 AM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: reaganaut; SkyDancer; Osage Orange

Was MormonDude up to his old tricks again? ;^)


89 posted on 03/23/2010 12:15:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

True dat!!


90 posted on 03/23/2010 12:20:26 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity. - Sigmund Freud)
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To: Elsie

Not sure who he is or what he’s trying to accomplish. He doesn’t seem to know very much about what he’s talking about ...


91 posted on 03/23/2010 3:14:48 PM PDT by SkyDancer (If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed)
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To: SkyDancer

“... they particularly get upset when you mention the Mountain Meadow Massacre ... they say “Oh no no no - it wasn’t us” ....”
_________________________________________________________

I know. I’m related to the Tackitt’s. I will never forget.


92 posted on 03/23/2010 8:09:33 PM PDT by JouleZ (You are the company you keep.)
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To: tbw2

You are misinformed. Google Mountain Meadow Massacre, 1857.


93 posted on 03/23/2010 8:18:09 PM PDT by JouleZ (You are the company you keep.)
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To: Elsie
Thanks for your confirmation
94 posted on 03/25/2010 12:57:22 AM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: BlueMoose

You are welcome.


95 posted on 03/25/2010 5:26:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueMoose; Elsie
Thanks for your confirmation

I didn't know Elsie had the correct authority to 'confirm.'

96 posted on 03/25/2010 5:47:32 AM PDT by colorcountry (A faith without truth is not true faith.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

And yet mormon females had to wear a veil at one time...

Some Mennonite, Amish, and Hutterites wear head coverings. Traditional Catholics nuns wear veils, Catholic women had to wear a head covering in church services until 1964.

Women were expectd to wear hats in public until after WWII.

It is not the covering that is the issue, it is the political social intolerance of islam


97 posted on 03/25/2010 5:54:52 AM PDT by Chickensoup (We have the government we deserve. Is our government our traitor?)
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