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Satire and Sarcasm
Chasing Hats ^ | July 18, 2002 | Joshua Clark

Posted on 03/23/2010 5:44:17 PM PDT by delacoert

Is there a Biblical case for satire? When referring to theological opponents, is it acceptable to use such derogatory terms as “fundie,” “papist,” or “orthodust”? Are such books as Nathan Wilson’s Right Behind and Doug Jones’ Mantra of Jabez appropriate parodies of evangelical books? Or are all of these improprieties in criticism, tending to further division in the Church, drive people from whatever position is being defended, and portray a general picture of Christianity devoid of the love of Christ?

Opponents of satire and sarcasm argue that the mockery behind such monikers and books is not grounded in the love of Christ that is best manifested in charity toward enemies. They say that such ridicule is entirely against Paul’s command in 2 Cor. 6:3 to “give no offense in anything, that our ministry may not be blamed.” And in addition, they say that such sarcastic remarks about theological opponents ignore the fact that we are still brothers in the Lord despite doctrinal differences, and thus a spirit of sectarianism is promoted rather than a spirit of unity in Christ.

While there definitely are perversions of satire that are intended only to stir up strife and dispute, you cannot toss out the principle of Biblical sarcasm just because of its perversions. This is akin to the argument that Christianity is a sham because there are hypocrites calling themselves Christians. Just because there are fake diamonds being manufactured and sold as genuine doesn’t mean true diamonds don’t exist. And so offensive satire should only lead us to seek out what Biblical satire looks like.

Tremendous insights can be gained by looking at Christ’s diatribe against the Pharisee’s in Matthew 23. In vv. 24-27 Jesus says,

Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

This passage and the rest of the chapter show that the Christianity of the Bible is not always as “nice” or “kind” as we would like. The “love of Christ” is not so warm and nonconfrontational as is commonly assumed. Rather, when there is an antithesis between two groups of people, mere intellectual wrangling can rarely resolve the conflict, and often more inflationary language is required. Christ used this method of caricaturing to show the distinction between His followers and the “blind guides” and “whited sepulchres” that were the scribes and Pharisees.

Also indicative of this sarcastic spirit are the references in the Psalms to laughing at your enemies and having them in derision. The image of Christianity presented in the Psalms is one both of praise to God for preserving the lives of His saints and of prayers to God to cut off evildoers and judge the wicked. Take Psalm 52:6-9:

The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him: Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness. But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever. I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

Such passages as this show that although we are certainly to love our enemies and pray for their salvation, we must also remember that it is God who casts down those who strengthen themselves in wickedness, and preserves as an olive tree those who fear Him. And the revelation of this antithesis between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman can at times be found in somewhat biting laughter and mockery.

Often Christians get so caught up in restraining themselves from hating their enemies that they end up thinking it is entirely unrighteous to show disdain for them or to mock them. But we find that the Bible is not devoid of ridicule for the fools, and that Christ Himself spread it rather thick on the Pharisees. In our attempts to understand how best to confront those we disagree with, we must never disregard the pattern of Scripture, as this will always lead to futility.

So we see then that sarcasm can be used righteously, but we must define the goal of sarcasm if we are to avoid the more invidious uses that hinder Christian truth. The goal of satire, as with all forms of rebuke, should be to save a person from error. As James 5:20 says, “He which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” Rebuke in any form is a very gracious act when done with concern for the soul of the man in error.

Mockery should not be the form of rebuke in every situation, however. In Galatians 1:1, Paul says, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness.” Never should the usage of sarcasm in the Bible be interpreted to support immediate harshness whenever a brother errs; rather, the emphasis should first be placed on a private rebuke, as this is the first step in the Matthew 18 process.

Yet sometimes mockery is appropriate. Once a person has spurned rebuke, and especially when other Christians are falling into this person’s error, open ridicule may be an appropriate way to call them back to truth. And when the object of the ridicule is the heathen and the workers of iniquity, then mockery is definitely appropriate, as they don’t even share the privilege of brotherhood in Christ. These are the people David and Christ were reproving and mocking. Regarding church discipline, 1 Timothy 5:20 reads, “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” And this should also be the heart of any appropriate satire; that others also may fear.

So we find that there is no cookie-cutter approach to determining propriety in satire. At times it seems best to just let an error be, or to go privately to the straying brother. But at other times the shrewdest approach appears to be a public ridicule of a person’s doctrine so that others are not led astray. In order to make this judgment of suitable action, we must have a firm grasp of the basic principles and purpose of satire and then let wisdom guide our actions. If we try to lay things out unilaterally, cut and dry, then we will inevitably hurt somebody since situations are more variable than that. But if we rely on wisdom, we can have assurance that our form of rebuke will be fitting for the occasion.

In summary, we must remember that Christianity is not so limp-wristed as to avoid all mockery of wrong positions, as the examples in Scripture show that this is allowable at least in some circumstances. But we must also remember that the purpose of mockery should always be to point out error, and when mockery is causing undue offense or further entrenching a person in their error, it should be pulled back. We must constantly keep in mind that satire, when wrongly used, can be a divisive blade, cutting brethren to pieces where a simple rebuke would have been admonishment enough; but when rightly used, satire can be an exposing light, revealing error and exhorting to repentance.

So let us use satire with wisdom, and pray for such unity in the faith that satire will become entirely unnecessary.



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: anitmormonthread; beck; glennbeck; inman; mormon; mormon1; mormonism
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To: delacoert

oh snap


51 posted on 03/24/2010 3:53:06 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: delacoert

Satire, in a way, is telling the truth; in making it obvious why the object of the satire is ridiculous, error is rebuked.


52 posted on 03/24/2010 3:56:30 PM PDT by mrreaganaut (Battlestar Galactica: Another Testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints)
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To: colorcountry
technically Jesus could go and visit them

Actually, not true according to their Doctrines and Covenant:

Joseph Smith taught that individuals in the telestial kingdom will be servants of God, but "where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end";[25] however, they will receive the ministration of the Holy Ghost and beings from the terrestrial kingdom

53 posted on 03/24/2010 3:58:58 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: colorcountry

How bizarre to think of a heaven where you will never be in the presence of God. I’m glad you’re going to be in the Christian heaven with me and all other believers CC :-) And we will glory in the presence of God forever.


54 posted on 03/24/2010 4:01:20 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: T Minus Four

When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am. John 14:3

Is that right? The LDS can’t believe this is true. Jesus will only visit the two highr degrees of glory, the Celestial and the Terrestial kingdoms. Those in the lower Telestial kingdom never get to see Jesus again, nor “Heavenly Father”

***

It seems to me it is you who assumes Jesus will bring everyone.

Why should the slacker be rewards as well as those who strive to do the things asked them to do?

Each reward is according how much oil they have in their lamps!


55 posted on 03/24/2010 4:05:15 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
Each reward is according how much oil they have in their lamps!

REsty, you yourself just said a few posts back that all degrees of glory are included.

You: "You know the Father house is very spacious and therefore it covers all degrees of glory!"

56 posted on 03/24/2010 4:16:40 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: restornu
Why should the slacker be rewards as well as those who strive to do the things asked them to do?

So, it's true - you believe in earning your way to heaven rather than grace.

57 posted on 03/24/2010 4:18:20 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: restornu

Gotta go for a few hours


58 posted on 03/24/2010 4:18:40 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: T Minus Four

Don’t confused Salvation is by grace.

Where you end up is by how much light you have in your lamp!

You may dismiss the degree of glory but one can only go so far as they can receive light!


59 posted on 03/24/2010 4:27:17 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
Matthew 20:1-16

1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to them he said, `You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.' So they went. 5 Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing; and he said to them, `Why do you stand here idle all day?' 7 They said to him, `Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, `You go into the vineyard too.' 8 And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, `Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.' 9 And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10 Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled at the householder, 12 saying, `These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13 But he replied to one of them, `Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?' 16 So the last will be first, and the first last."

60 posted on 03/24/2010 4:29:25 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: restornu
Is it light or oil?

Don’t confused Salvation is by grace. I don't know what you guys are trying to say here.

61 posted on 03/24/2010 4:34:19 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: delacoert

placemarker


62 posted on 03/24/2010 6:41:26 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: restornu
Where you end up is by how much light you have in your lamp!

well, Christians believe that where you end up is by following the light of the world, Jesus.

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.John 1:4-9

Resty, there is not one single thing we can do to save ourselves or to glorify ourselves. We have to GIVE UP and follow the light, Jesus. If we trust Him, He will save us. Anything we try to do on our own is insulting to God - like filthy rags.

That's what Christians know is true.

63 posted on 03/24/2010 7:26:23 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: delacoert

Oh I love that parable! I became a Christian rather late in the “day”, but I know that my reward will be just the ame as all believers!


64 posted on 03/24/2010 7:29:00 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: svcw; restornu
Don’t confused Salvation is by grace.

I think it means that if you think salvation is by grace you are confused. That is, if I translated that correctly.

65 posted on 03/24/2010 7:33:51 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: T Minus Four

,-)


66 posted on 03/24/2010 7:38:45 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: T Minus Four

Don’t confused Salvation is by grace.
I think it means that if you think salvation is by grace you are confused. That is, if I translated that correctly.

***

Don’t put words in my mouth thank you

Salvation is by grace!


67 posted on 03/24/2010 7:47:09 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
Salvation is by grace!

I almost fainted when I read that. I do not think I could count the number of posts by lds in the few months that say "salvation is by works".

68 posted on 03/24/2010 7:56:16 PM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: restornu; svcw; T Minus Four

Salvation is by grace!

- - - - - -
Define what you mean by ‘salvation’. Because the LDS mean something different by it than Christians do.

For Christians, salvation is living with Heavenly Father (in His presence) for ALL eternity.

To the LDS, salvation (by grace) is resurrection.


69 posted on 03/24/2010 8:01:45 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

go contend with yourself!


70 posted on 03/24/2010 8:11:33 PM PDT by restornu
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To: svcw

Salvation is by grace!
I almost fainted when I read that. I do not think I could count the number of posts by lds in the few months that

say “salvation is by works”.

****

WRONG!


71 posted on 03/24/2010 8:12:23 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu; svcw; reaganaut

So which is it? By the grace of God through Jesus or by how much oil you have in your lamp and by not slacking?


72 posted on 03/24/2010 8:23:36 PM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: T Minus Four

Don’t any of you get tired of trying to provoke and tease are you all so bored or maybe losing your short term memory!

***

Salvation is by Grace! (saved)

another topic

The reward is the degree of glory one is able to endure and receive it.

Oil, light etc meaning what you have deposit in your spiritual bank account.

The cleaner the vessle the greater the Light one will be able to endure.

Example when Moses spoke to the Lord face to face the rest of the children could have not endure the Lord’s present.


73 posted on 03/24/2010 8:46:04 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu; svcw; T Minus Four

I notice you did not say my definition was incorrect.

To the LDS - Salvation = resurrection only and one of the three kingdoms.

Exaltation (part of the Celestial Kingdom) and getting to the CK is based upon LDS membership and their own works.

For Christians, all will be resurrected but only those who have a faith in Christ alone are ‘saved’ by His grace not our works. For Christians, salvation IS living with God the Father.

Do you see why Christians think the LDS are being misleading when they say they believe that they are ‘saved by grace’?


74 posted on 03/24/2010 8:54:09 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: delacoert

I agree


75 posted on 03/24/2010 9:20:37 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Mount Carmel Utah, Twelve Miles East of Zion National Park)
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To: delacoert

Oh snap!


76 posted on 03/24/2010 9:27:04 PM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: delacoert

Will reread it more closely and try and comment more at length maybe tomorrow.

Sounds like a good article with good Biblical points.


77 posted on 03/24/2010 9:31:57 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Tax-chick

“I also think that, in today’s climate, it’s more likely to miss the target than not.”

In today’s climate, it’s hard to figure out what is satire:

a) The U.S. President gives the Queen of England an I-pod as a gift.

b) The U.S. President fires the CEO (President?) of General Motors.

c) The Vice President of the United States of America, in discussing the Healthcare Nationalization Plan says “This is a BIIGG F’ing deal”.


78 posted on 03/24/2010 9:34:00 PM PDT by 21twelve (Having the Democrats in control is like a never-ending game of Calvin ball. (Giotto))
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To: delacoert; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; Godzilla; ...
The shower woke me up enough to make some generic comments a bit more before I trundle off to bed.

. . .

1. As with beauty in the eye of the beholder and one man's junk is another man's treasure . . . so, too, fitting satire and mockery are in the eye of the beholder. It depends on who's ox is gored.

2. Usually, the huge chips on shoulders and the super thin skins tend to decide such, more even, than the blackened glasses.

3. There are probably less than 5 people who post frequently on the Rel Forum threads who seem to have any remotely reliable capacity to take satire or mockery directed at them and their perspectives and roll with such, laughing at themselves or at least noting that the satire or mockery was well done or made some fitting points or some such.

4. I don't know of ANY rabid clique Roman Catholics et al who come remotely close to being the least bit able to laugh at themselves or openly confess that some satire or mockery made some fitting points about them or their perspectives.

5. Generally speaking, it seems that such cliques hereon are pretty much like my hyper liberal associates on various forums and at the univ. They are virtually one and all extremely brittle; with huge chips on their shoulders and super thin skinned--and extremely quick to be hostile, super bitterly defensive and the like.

6. For some reason, it seems that satire etc comprises some of my best writing.

7. I find satire and mockery are potent, pointed, condensed, humorous, concise ways of making some powerful points that might take many pages to make the same points much more poorly.

8. Personally, I don't think that folks for whom the satire or mockery do not apply, need have the least bit of an emotional response to it. Let it be water off a duck.

9. On the other hand, it seems to me that virtually always, WHEN THERE'S A FIERCE RESPONSE, it seems to be a VERY RELIABLE SIGN that the arrow of the satire has struck the bull's eye. And the gored ox can't stand the mirror.

10. Whooooop-T-Do! Grow up! Learn! Grow! Go on!

11. If folks are tooooo thin skinnes, brittle, insecure, with gargantuan chips on their shoulders and more than enough bitterness and bile to curdle water . . . they probably ought not read such posts by me or by anyone else. Their blood pressure might well be better off--along with their blood vessels, hearts, and other organs influenced by cortisol.

12. I usually get a kick out of it when some Roman Catholic et al folks in the rabid cliques try to manage some satire or mockery. Very occasionally, it's witty, humorous and at least a little above average enough to be entertaining. Sadly, most of the time, it just falls flat as a vain, failed effort. Then I tend to feel embarrassed for those of that perspective.

13. My own spiritual growth was immeasureably enhanced by very witty satire & mockery directed at me. Few things could cause me to think as deeply and productively as such presentations of and challenges to my own inherent absurdities. Yeah, some of such assaults left me hurt to furious. Yet, they "hurt good" and left a redemptive result--LARGELY BECAUSE I WAS DETERMINED TO GROW--REGARDLESS OF THE INPUT.

14. I think it is crucial for all Believers to offer up everything in their day and in their lives on the altar--put it all on the altar or The Cross and wait upon God for whatever He hands back as a lesson, reward or rebuke.

15. THEN we are dealing with GOD'S PERSPECTIVE on our stuff and have no business nor any need to be the least bit upset with the mortal(s) involved. God has merely used them as messengers or catalysts.

16. Anyway--I find satire and mockery to be quite efficient and effective ways to communicate in relatively brief ways great import as well as great quantities of points that would require pages or chapters otherwise.

17. And, I love the wit and humor of such--often as much when I'm on the receiving end as when I'm the sender.

Cheers.

79 posted on 03/24/2010 10:26:16 PM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix; Alamo-Girl; stfassisi; metmom; xzins; delacoert; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Cvengr; ...
8. Personally, I don't think that folks for whom the satire or mockery do not apply, need have the least bit of an emotional response to it. Let it be water off a duck.

Sounds about right to me, dear brother in Christ!

80 posted on 03/24/2010 10:32:01 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: Quix
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

When people poke fun at me I usually laugh. Then again, I am a very clumsy person so I have a lot of experience. LOLOL!

81 posted on 03/24/2010 10:53:19 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
That sounds right to me, too, dearest sister in Christ!
82 posted on 03/24/2010 10:53:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

To God be the glory, dearest sister in Christ!


83 posted on 03/24/2010 10:57:14 PM PDT by betty boop (Moral law is not rooted in factual laws of nature; they only tell us what happens, not what ought to)
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To: delacoert

Yeah - as some may have seen by my comment on a recently posted thread, I don’t even spare the religion moderator from my caustic witticisms. But - either they knew I was right, or else my smooth sophistication went right over their head, because I was neither banned nor suspended for my sharp snark.

I seldom spare my knives or razors when it comes to deconstructing the Smith-ite theology of lies, or its co-author(s)...I’m even less charitable with the P.hony R.eligion O.f P.eace {P.R.O.P. - phony religion, phony peace... coming to you from Arabia since 632 AD}

A.A.C.


84 posted on 03/25/2010 12:06:50 AM PDT by AmericanArchConservative (Armour on, Lances high, Swords out, Bows drawn, Shields front ... Eagles UP!)
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To: delacoert
The following excerpt IMHO applies to Chris Dodd.... who should be prosecuted for crimes against the people of this country:

Also indicative of this sarcastic spirit are the references in the Psalms to laughing at your enemies and having them in derision.

The image of Christianity presented in the Psalms is one both of praise to God for preserving the lives of His saints and of prayers to God to cut off evildoers and judge the wicked.

Take Psalm 52:6-9:

The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him: Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.

But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

85 posted on 03/25/2010 12:31:20 AM PDT by antceecee (Bless us Father.. have mercy on us and protect us from evil.)
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To: delacoert

The more history one studies, the more one can appreciate some of the directed sarcasm in many situations n Scripture.

Take the revelation of the Father to Christ given to John. There is a depiction of Christ with seven stars in his hand.

I remember a sermon noting at the time of writing and for a century or so preceding, there were mythical allusions to Caesar and Zeus holding the stars representing the daughters of Zeus in his hand and whoever held them in his hand controlled the universe.

In the first chapter of Revelation we see He who is the first and the last holding seven stars representing the seven angels of the seven churches in His hand.

Without adding or taking away from Scripture, it might be easy to see how such a revelation to a worldly person of that day simply assertively represents God controls the universe, not Zeus.


86 posted on 03/25/2010 3:05:05 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: 21twelve

Yes, exactly. And don’t forget, “The President gives the Prime Minister a set of DVDs that work only in the US.” Columnists keep having to repeat, “I’m not making this up!” when reporting real events.

Many times, a person will post something he considers outrageous satire, only to have someone reply with a news item showing that it’s already happened.


87 posted on 03/25/2010 4:30:06 AM PDT by Tax-chick (It's a jungle out there, kiddies. Have a very fruitful day.)
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To: reaganaut

so you say...

like I said go contend with yourself.


88 posted on 03/25/2010 5:01:50 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
The reward is the degree of glory one is able to endure and receive it.

Endure, hardly. I will not have to "endure" the Glory of God. I will Praise the Glory and be thankful in it.

89 posted on 03/25/2010 6:04:15 AM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: restornu

http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20061203.htm


90 posted on 03/25/2010 6:42:15 AM PDT by SZonian (We began as a REPUBLIC, a nation of laws. We became a DEMOCRACY, majority rules. Next step is?)
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To: restornu
The reward is the degree of glory one is able to endure and receive it.

Oil, light etc meaning what you have deposit in your spiritual bank account.

The cleaner the vessle the greater the Light one will be able to endure.

Resty, who told you this? And why do you want so much to believe it?

91 posted on 03/25/2010 6:55:19 AM PDT by T Minus Four ("You do not have soul, you ARE a soul. You have a body." C.S. Lewis)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl

To be known and understood to whatever degree by you two . . .

is one of God’s big treasures to me this side of eternity.

To be at all understood on this issue is a HUGE gift and relief, treasure.

THANKS ENORMOUSLY.


92 posted on 03/25/2010 7:02:38 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: AmericanArchConservative; Religion Moderator

My own best guess is that . . .

The RM

—considers the source, laughs &/or shakes head and goes on . . .

&/or

—sees it as an inconsequential ignorance about his true self, priorities etc. laughs &/or shakes head and goes on . . .

&/or

—figures the children have to vent now and then regardless how askew from reality—laughs &/or shakes head and goes on . . .

&/or

—recognizes some truth in the assertions, learns something of value and goes on without making an awkward fuss about it . . .

and/or

—considers the ignorance involved on our side too significant to bother with compared to the meager worth of the issue—laughs &/or shakes head and goes on . . .

and/or

—is too busy and/or tired to bother regardless of the merit of the issue and goes on . . .

and/or

—extends grace regardless because he wants grace extended to him regardless and goes on . . .

and/or ???


93 posted on 03/25/2010 7:09:46 AM PDT by Quix (BLOKES who got us where we R: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: restornu

Resty what is WRONG!
That lds have to work for salvation or that lds have said on FR that you have to work for salvation?
We have been told by lds on FR that there are “works” for salvation.
Works for salvation is not Biblical.
Salvation is a gift, it is given by Grace, that is Biblical.


94 posted on 03/25/2010 7:29:21 AM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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To: svcw

So you believe


95 posted on 03/25/2010 8:07:29 AM PDT by restornu
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To: svcw

There is NO work in Salvation what part don’t you understand!


96 posted on 03/25/2010 8:09:13 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

Thank you, Resty.


97 posted on 03/25/2010 8:16:52 AM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: restornu

If you say different I would love to hear it.


98 posted on 03/25/2010 8:17:16 AM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: svcw; T Minus Four; restornu

Remember term differences. To the LDS ‘salvation by grace’ means PHYSICAL salvation, not spiritual. Physical salvation is resurrection and an assignment to one of the 3 kingdoms.

For Christians ‘salvation by Grace’ is Spiritual salvation, i.e. being cleansed by faith and able to stand in the presence of God for eternity (LDS would say this is the Celestial Kingdom). For the LDS, this spiritual salvation is according to works, or as Resty said, what you have in your ‘spiritual bank account’.

Did you notice, no LDS has contradicted me on my above post about this?


99 posted on 03/25/2010 8:23:01 AM PDT by reaganaut ("I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: restornu
I understand there is no “works” in Salvation.
However, lds do not seem to understand as demonstrated on FR on a regular basis.
100 posted on 03/25/2010 8:24:21 AM PDT by svcw (Jesus comforts the uncomfortable and makes uncomfortable the comfortable.)
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