St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

DeaconsBench ^ | Monday August 24, 2009 | Beliefnet/Deacon's Bench

[Salvation]

St. Juan Diego's tilma: "completely outside" science

Monday August 24, 2009

Take a look:

A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon.

Adolfo Orozco stated this in a presentation given at an International Marian Congress that took place Aug. 6-8 in Phoenix.

The congress, sponsored by the Knights of Columbus, the Phoenix Diocese and the Institute of Guadalupan Studies, was dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Orozco gave a presentation on the image of the Virgin imprinted on St. Juan Diego's tilma, stating that it is "completely outside" any scientific explanation.

He explained that due to the humid, salty environment around the basilica where the tilma is kept in Mexico City, the cloak material should have decomposed years ago.

In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma.

Although the copy was preserved behind glass, like the original, it had to be discarded eight years later because it was falling apart and the painting was fading, the physicist reported.

The original image, however, which was imprinted on the cloak when the Blessed Virgin appeared to the saint, remains intact after 478 years.

Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it.

He affirmed that there is no natural explanation for how the image has survived undamaged through time and potentially destructive events such as these.

[Alamo-Girl]

May God bless you, dear brother in Christ, and all your loved ones in all the same ways!

Thank you for your encouragements.

[MarkBsnr]

Yah'shua is the Shekinah of YHvH.

MB>In other words, no.

But it is based only on the WORD of YHvH. It does not impugn the WORD OF YHvH and follow traditions of man.

If one does not believe in the divinity of Christ, then one is not Christian. If one does not believe in the Trinitarian formula, then one is not Christian. I don't recall you having ever claimed that you were, so we must remember that we are operating from two different points of reference when we interact.

[lastchance]

You are welcome.

[Uri’el-2012]

Uri'el> Yah'shua is not a created being.

Then I misunderstood. He is Divine? Is He the same as God the Father or is He God the Son? I took your previous answer to mean you were not Trinitarian. Was I wrong?

He is the shekinah glory of YHvH who has tabernacled among us. (John 1:14)

Can you be more specific about your beliefs? The tabernacle is a created thing. Shekinah can mean the dwelling or settling divine presence of God, especially in the Temple; for some it represents the feminine attributes of the presence of God (shekhinah is a feminine word in Hebrew), based on readings of the Talmud. Shekinah varies in meaning. Shekinah glory means what? A divine being or a divine presence in something else?

Is Yah'shua God or not God? If God is it the same person as God the Father or not? Is He begotten of the Father? Is He fully human or not human at all?

Thank you.

One needs to be like the Bereans

Act 17:11
Now these(Bereans) were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica,
for they received the word with great eagerness,
examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Also see YHvH & salvation
Gen. 49:18; Exod. 14:13; 15:2; 1 Sam. 2:1; 2 Sam. 22:47; 1 Chr. 16:23; 2 Chr. 6:41; 20:17; Ps. 3:8; 14:7; 18:2, 46; 21:1; 24:5; 27:1; 35:9; 37:39; 38:22; 40:16; 68:19; 85:7; 88:1; 95:1; 96:2; 98:2; 106:4; 116:13; 118:14f; 119:41, 166, 174; 140:7; 149:4; Isa. 12:2; 25:9; 33:2, 6; 45:8, 17; 49:8; 52:10; 56:1; 61:10; 62:11; Jer. 3:23; Lam. 3:26; Jon. 2:9; Mic. 7:7; Hab. 3:8, 18;

HSN-07931 שכן shakan ( Shekhinah: the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, )
See : Gen. 14:13; 26:2; Exod. 40:35; Num. 5:3; 24:2; 35:34; Deut. 33:12, 20; Jos. 22:19; Jdg. 5:17; Ezr. 6:12; Ps. 37:3; 78:60; 135:21; Prov. 27:10; Isa. 33:5, 24; 57:15; Jer. 6:21; Hos. 10:5; Joel 4:17, 21

Seek YHvh in His WORD !

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[D-fendr]

Let’s see if I can get what I asked for correctly.

I believe you are saying Jesus is God, YHvH, the One God of the Jews, not the Trinitarian God the Son.

I still do not understand how you are viewing the humanity of Christ. Was he human? Did he become inhabited by YhvH after his birth or before?

You said “Yah’shua is not a created being.” I take that to mean the uncreated, or God. How then are you seeing the body of Christ? Is He born of a woman? Who is His father?

I really would appreciate specific answers rather than vague ones that only cause more questions.

thank you.

[Uri’el-2012]

Uri'el> Yah'shua is not a created being.

Then I misunderstood. He is Divine? Is He the same as God the Father or is He God the Son? I took your previous answer to mean you were not Trinitarian. Was I wrong?

He is the shekinah glory of YHvH who has tabernacled among us. (John 1:14)

Can you be more specific about your beliefs? The tabernacle is a created thing. Shekinah can mean the dwelling or settling divine presence of God, especially in the Temple; for some it represents the feminine attributes of the presence of God (shekhinah is a feminine word in Hebrew), based on readings of the Talmud. Shekinah varies in meaning. Shekinah glory means what? A divine being or a divine presence in something else?

Is Yah'shua God or not God? If God is it the same person as God the Father or not? Is He begotten of the Father? Is He fully human or not human at all?

Thank you.

One needs to be like the Bereans

Act 17:11
Now these(Bereans) were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica,
for they received the word with great eagerness,
examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Also see YHvH & salvation
Gen. 49:18; Exod. 14:13; 15:2; 1 Sam. 2:1; 2 Sam. 22:47; 1 Chr. 16:23; 2 Chr. 6:41; 20:17; Ps. 3:8; 14:7; 18:2, 46; 21:1; 24:5; 27:1; 35:9; 37:39; 38:22; 40:16; 68:19; 85:7; 88:1; 95:1; 96:2; 98:2; 106:4; 116:13; 118:14f; 119:41, 166, 174; 140:7; 149:4; Isa. 12:2; 25:9; 33:2, 6; 45:8, 17; 49:8; 52:10; 56:1; 61:10; 62:11; Jer. 3:23; Lam. 3:26; Jon. 2:9; Mic. 7:7; Hab. 3:8, 18;

HSN-07931 שכן shakan ( Shekhinah: the word means literally to settle, inhabit, or dwell, )
See : Gen. 14:13; 26:2; Exod. 40:35; Num. 5:3; 24:2; 35:34; Deut. 33:12, 20; Jos. 22:19; Jdg. 5:17; Ezr. 6:12; Ps. 37:3; 78:60; 135:21; Prov. 27:10; Isa. 33:5, 24; 57:15; Jer. 6:21; Hos. 10:5; Joel 4:17, 21

Seek YHvH in His WORD !

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[D-fendr]

There are questions still unanswered. Is it that you don’t know or don’t wish to say? If you don’t know, perhaps a link to your groups theology could suffice.

I’m asking theological questions, what is your theology? Proof texts for the theology are fine, but please provide them after the answers to the questions.

[Quix]

I have more time and energy to respond now . . . And I'm still a bit unclear on a point or two.

Actually, I see more of the aliens-as-demons vision in Roland Buck's Angels on Assignment than in the ancient Book of Enoch (Enoch I).

Ahhh, I'd forgotten that part of Roland's book. I should reread it a 4th time. It's a worthy encouraging read for many reasons.

So, does he characterize fallen angels as pretending to be ET's? I forget. Could you summarize his perspective, description on the issue?

Any hoot, Enoch expands on Genesis 6 as you say.

. . .

A subtext I gather from Enoch is that the demons are the spirits of the children of the angels who slept with women. They were blood thirsty giants physically destroyed by the Noah flood. But their spirits remained to roam the earth whereas their angelic parents were bound for the coming judgment.

And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. - Luke 4:41

In other words, dear brother in Christ, I see these demons (once embodied children of angels/women) as bound already (e.g. earth-bound or bound to the deep) not as extraterrestrials capable of free will movement in the end of days.

And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked. - Luke 8:30-33

Notably, according to Enoch, the angels who slept with women (Genesis 6) were on assignment from God to "watch" over mankind. They are often called the Watchers.

Satan, on the other hand, has a following of angels who obviously had self-will, e.g. to rebel.

Perhaps they are the ones Roland Buck saw as end of days UFOs. [emphasis added]

[Qx: I think that's my perspective and that of Guy Malone and his heavy duty scholarly panel of experts.]

Another interesting point, Enoch explains that God called upon him to plead the case of the Watchers who were begging for mercy for their children. The Watcher angels were dealt with very harshly indeed, as I am sure all Satan's angelic followers will be in the end of days (Rev 20). But God was merciful to the demons by letting their spirits survive the Noah flood and in granting the above plea of "Legion" to be spared banishment to the "deep."

I *think* you are saying the same thing I've felt a long time . . . that it is highly likely that the fallen angels still more or less at large to plague mankind from their spiritual dimension . . . are the ones playing the role of ET's throughout history and in our current era???

[MarkBsnr]

Thank you for clarifying.

You are not Christian, in other words. You believe that Jesus was God the Father Incarnated; the Holy Spirit would then be a mechanism of God.

An amalgam of the Jewish and Oneness Pentecostal beliefs, I’d hazard.

[Rich21IE]

No disrespect intented; I’d agree that strong reactions can be a good sign.........however, in these days, I observe, the reactions are tending ever more and inappropriately strong, tending to near violent.

Which is interesting to me. What’s it all about? the reactions against belief or faith are near visceral, as though the faithful are somehow a threat. Quite curious in this country, in this day of relative wealth and easy living. In such times, I’d have expected apathy.

[JoeProBono]

[Quix]

HMMMMMM

May well be seeing more such designs and motifs.

Sigh.

[Uri’el-2012]

Thank you for clarifying.

You are not Christian, in other words. You believe that Jesus was God the Father Incarnated; the Holy Spirit would then be a mechanism of God.

An amalgam of the Jewish and Oneness Pentecostal beliefs, I’d hazard.

By your definition, perhaps.
However I am a follower of the Jewish Messiah.
The Messiah as prophesied in the Tanach.

I have been called out by the Holy One of Israel;
my sins have been covered by the blood of the Lamb.

I call on the NAME which saves:
Yah'shua (YHvH be/is my salvation).
See: Gen. 49:18; Exod. 14:13; 15:2; 1 Sam. 2:1; 2 Sam. 22:47; 1 Chr. 16:23; 2 Chr. 6:41; 20:17; Ps. 3:8; 14:7; 18:2, 46; 21:1; 24:5; 27:1; 35:9; 37:39; 38:22; 40:16; 68:19; 85:7; 88:1; 95:1; 96:2; 98:2; 106:4; 116:13; 118:14f; 119:41, 166, 174; 140:7; 149:4; Isa. 12:2; 25:9; 33:2, 6; 45:8, 17; 49:8; 52:10; 56:1; 61:10; 62:11; Jer. 3:23; Lam. 3:26; Jon. 2:9; Mic. 7:7; Hab. 3:8, 18;

I do not follow man-made Tradition;
I follow only the WORD of Elohim.

I believe in only ONE G-d: YHvH;
I do not believe in three gods,
where the old god is rejected and
the new god is created in the image
of mankind.

I reject the concept of a mother of G-d.
I do not believe in any queen of heaven
except as practiced in Paganism.(Jer 7 & 44)

Yah'shua said there is only ONE G-d: YHvH.
See: (Mark 12:29)(Deut 6:4)

Seek YHvH in His WORD.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply.

I agree apathy would be the expected reaction. And that is the usual, the norm.

I think what we see here is not normal, there’s something else going on that, as you note, is seen as a serious threat, internally, nearly visceral as you say.

My comment was hinting that this is a normal result, the internal threat, and that it is a God thing, one that I trust He sees as the necessary way for some people to change.

thanks again.

[D-fendr]

An amalgam of the Jewish and Oneness Pentecostal beliefs, I’d hazard.

Yes, some form of Modalism based on the limited replies. I've found it impossible to elicit anything specific.

Many, if not most Messianic Jews are Trinitarians. Those that aren't would have to travel the same path to some form Christology if they are to continue in a consistent teaching, even if it is not Trinitarian.

It seems here, it hasn't been done, the obvious theological problems haven't been looked at, at least not enough to form a coherent theology.

This should not surprise. We're looking at a small subset of a religious movement barely 50 years old. For all we know, in this case, the theology, as far as it can be called that, is much younger.

[dubyagee]

“It’s the difference between salvation and superstition.”

A relationship with Christ, and Christ alone, is the difference between salvation and superstition. Whether you agree with Catholic doctrine or not, surely you understand that you can believe Christ, have a personal relationship with him, thereby being a recipient of his gift of salvation, yet still hold incorrect doctrinal beliefs...otherwise, it’s all about doctrine, and not a personal relationship. Right?

[Alamo-Girl]

I went back and looked at Angels on Assignment to see if I could find a reference to UFOs and demons or fallen angels. I didn't find any - much to my chagrin.

Evidently I was reading something into his discussion with Michael on page 61 (emphasis mine):

He said "In case you are not aware of it, twenty-four hours a day there is some type of evil force accusing God's people of things he has already forgiven." Satan does not see things the same way God sees them. He knows they are forgiven, but he keeps on accusing them anyway. "But," he said, "The heavens will be swept clean! Lucifer is going to try to fight, but he doesn't have a chance. If you want to read about what is coming, it is found in the twelfth chapter of Revelation, verses seven through ten." (Revelation 12:7-10).

....During the tribulation, the days will be horrible because all of the fallen angels will be on earth. Praise God he is taking us out before this happens.

Michael said, "There will not be a place in all of the vast heavens for even one of those demons, not even one!" He emphasized this and said that it is his assignment, and he is ready to go on it as soon as the day is appointed!

To the human eye, I suspect an angel being cast down to earth would be called an "Unidentified Flying Object."

[Quix]

LOL!

THAT'S COMFORTING. I didn't THINK my memory had gotten that bad about Angels on Assignment.

....During the tribulation, the days will be horrible because all of the fallen angels will be on earth. Praise God he is taking us out before this happens.

Michael said, "There will not be a place in all of the vast heavens for even one of those demons, not even one!" He emphasized this and said that it is his assignment, and he is ready to go on it as soon as the day is appointed!

To the human eye, I suspect an angel being cast down to earth would be called an "Unidentified Flying Object."

More than plausible, to me. Though I'm convinced they use tangible craft in their grand deception, too.

THANKS TONS FOR YOUR KIND BOTHER AND THOUGHTFUL, EDIFYING RESPONSES.

GOD'S BEST TO YOU, YOUR NIECE AND ALL THE ELDER CARE SITUATIONS.

LUB.

Update on Dad is his breathing has become erratic and he's in a hospice in Phoenix on liquid morphine every 2 hours. I'm praying that The Lord Jesus is doing serious advanced prep for Heaven with his spirit & heart in his current state.

THANKS TONS FOR YOUR CARING AND PRAYERS.

[MarkBsnr]

You are not Christian, in other words. You believe that Jesus was God the Father Incarnated; the Holy Spirit would then be a mechanism of God.

An amalgam of the Jewish and Oneness Pentecostal beliefs, I’d hazard.

By your definition, perhaps.

However I am a follower of the Jewish Messiah. The Messiah as prophesied in the Tanach. I have been called out by the Holy One of Israel; my sins have been covered by the blood of the Lamb.

Thank you for confirming it. And it's not my definition. It's the definition of the Church which counts, anyway, not mine or yours.

[MarkBsnr]

This should not surprise. We're looking at a small subset of a religious movement barely 50 years old. For all we know, in this case, the theology, as far as it can be called that, is much younger.

Another church of one?