Mormon and Christian

400 years ago Catholics looked on Protestantism as a cult of Christianity that lead people to hell, and looked on Protestants as not really being Christians. Clearly they've changed their minds a bit over the years on that.

In time, the same thing will happen with respect to Mormons IMHO. In fact it largely has already. While there are still some who speak of Mormons the same way that Catholics spoke of Protestants centuries ago, society in general recognizes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a Christian group.

Beliefnet.com lists Latter-Day Saints as a part of Christianity: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Latter-Day-Saints/index.aspx

Wikipedia: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (abbreviated as the LDS Church, and colloquially referred to as the Mormon Church) is a restorationist Christian religion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

Likewise the definition of 'Christian' at dictionary.com doesn't require adherence to orthodox dogma. Nor am I aware of any reputable dictionary or encyclopedia that says otherwise.

This of course is separate from the question of what set of teachings is actually correct. Christ taught that not all who lay claim to his name will have a legitimate claim, and in the end He will be the judge. That's fine with me.

Which is the point. Mormons are not Christians, for instance, here are some instances where we differ — and thusly the labels (Christian and Mormon are not interchangeable):

That an actual infinite is possible;

That there is an infinite regress of gods;

The universe and gods exist co-eternally;

That Jesus death on the cross was only for Adams sin;

That Jesus is a god (one of an infinite), not God;

That God didn’t create the space-time continuum;

That any Spirit child could have done what Jesus did if he advanced as quickly as Jesus did. . . (in fact there could be a Jesus up there right now that has been exulted before getting his physical body, like Jesus did);

That blacks were cursed spirit children who stayed neutral in the heavenly (Kolobly) war;

That blacks will become white in heaven/Kolob, or a planet/heaven of their own;

That Joseph Smith and others said ALL other churches were corrupt;

That Joseph Smith has multiple First Vision accounts;

That Joseph Smith used occultic practices to translate the Book of Mormon;

That he had many, many wives;

That LDS have added Scripture;

That Brigham Young ordered the deaths of innocents;

That Brigham Young had many, many wives;

That Jesus had many, many wives (at least according to LDS);

That the Book of Mormon claims to be a historical book yet not one iota of evidence for it can be found;

That Heavenly Father has many, many wives (that yes, he screws for eternity, the LDS and Islam have something in common – also occult connections as well);

That god, Heavenly Father, was once a man on a planet that may have owned a 7-11 type business and have been unfaithful to his wife before being exulted and following a LDS like path to it – exultation/salvation;

That Heavenly Father had a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother who were also once human;

On, and On, and On, and On – ad infinitum!

The LDS does not consider Baptists/Presbyterians/Methodists/Catholics/Pentecostals to be Mormons.

JOSEPH SMITH—HISTORY
EXTRACTS FROM THE HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH, THE PROPHET

History of the Church, Vol. 1, Chapter 1

An unusual excitement about religion prevails in western New York—He determines to seek wisdom as directed by James—The Father and the Son appear and Joseph is called to his prophetic ministry. (Verses 7-20.)

7 I was at this time in my fifteenth year. My father’s family was proselyted to the Presbyterian faith, and four of them joined that church, namely, my mother, Lucy; my brothers Hyrum and Samuel Harrison; and my sister Sophronia.

8 During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and ^astrife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was ^bright and who was wrong.

9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.

10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be ^aright, which is it, and how shall I know it?

11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of ^aJames, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack ^bwisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

12 Never did any passage of ^ascripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed ^bwisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects ^cunderstood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in ^adarkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would ^bgive liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the ^awoods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a ^bbeautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to ^cpray ^dvocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was ^aseized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick ^bdarkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to ^acall upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into ^bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of ^clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the ^dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself ^adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I ^bsaw two ^cPersonages, whose brightness and ^dglory defy all description, ^estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My ^fBeloved ^gSon. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to ^ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all ^awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those ^bprofessors were all ^ccorrupt; that: “they ^ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ^ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the ^fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the ^gpower thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself ^alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, ^bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

Here on FR when you go to post to the Religion forum you have the option of checking off what denomination(s) the post applies to. In there it lists the category of "Other Christian" as being specifically for "7th Day Adventist, Churches of God, Messianic Christians, Unitarian, LDS, etc."
This of course is separate from the question of what set of teachings is actually correct. Christ taught that not all who lay claim to his name will have a legitimate claim, and in the end He will be the judge. That's fine with me.

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Why so many LDS threads?

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Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2008 5:04:47 PM by Grig

I am posting this on behalf of many LDS freepers. They will post their own 'signature' to this in the comments below. --- Some of you have noticed lately a lot of LDS (ie: Mormon) threads here on FR. I'm going to tell you why.

For many years there have been several active LDS freepers here. We post to all the forums on relevant issues, and were happy to have a site where conservative values were so openly welcomed.

Those conservative values include faith in God, and freedom of religion. We fully respect the rights of all posters to express their opinions and views on religious matters, even when people choose to use those rights to express criticism of our own faith. We also support the ideas embodied in FR rules against religion bashing. There is no need for hostility and there should be no room for bigotry on FR. Every religion has it's miracles and mysteries. Every faith has things in it that are not or can not be proven, and things that run contrary to what secular science would have us believe. Someone mature and confident in their own faith generally doesn't feel the need to belittle the faith of others.

We have, to the best of our ability, conducted ourselves with civility and dignity. We do not feel that that respect has been returned by some posters (putting it mildly).

When Mormon missionaries were murdered, the moderators were kept busy pulling jubilant posts off the thread. When Elizabeth Smart was abducted from her home, we contended for months with posters who appeared to be motivated by religious bigotry doing all they could to smear the family and accuse the father. Several posters openly admitted their religious motivation in opposing Mitt Romney and confessed that no matter how conservative any Mormon was, they would never vote for one for President of the USA. When the Pope died, I don't think any Mormon poster posted anything unkind, yet the thread about the passing of our President recently needed many comments removed.

Nearly every thread having any connection with Mormons, or Utah winds up being hijacked by anti-Mormon activists who copy and paste the same false accusations over and over even when it has been clearly and factually pointed out to them on multiple occasions that they are bearing false witness against our faith. Everything possible is done by these activists to make FR a hostile place for Mormons, and for at least some of them, bashing Mormonism is all they do here. Their most recent project is trying to blur the fact that the polygamous FLDS is a separate and distinct religion from ours, just as Lutherans are a separate and distinct religion from Catholicism.

In our opinion, such poster do a great disservice to FR and to their fellow freepers by spreading disinformation and promoting hostility towards a people known for walking the walk of conservative values.

Why the moderators here don't see the behavior of these anti-Mormon activists as religion bashing is a mystery to us, but it is the moderators call to make and we respect their right to do so. That doesn't mean we have to be passive however. We have all spent many hours refuting the accusations leveled at our faith, but these wind up buried deep in a flood of comments, effectively shouting us down.

NOTE by GF: Sounds like an appeal for censoring debate to me.

Recently some of us have decided to take a more proactive approach. Rather than try to wrestle the pig into taking a bath, we are just going to hose it down. We will actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations.

So expect to see lots of Mormon threads, now and for as long as we see fit to keep posting them (although probably not as many as there are Catholic threads). They will be about our basic doctrines and responses to common accusations. If you want to know what our faith is about, read the articles we post. We will post them as open threads and I encourage you to compare the difference in tone and spirit between what we post and what our critics say.

Anyone who would read the recent mormon threads would see that the prophecy made May 08, 2008 has yet to be fulfilled, and that the named intention by mormons to bring to FR posts which "actively define our faith here rather than just respond to accusations" have instead become either articles posted as closed threads to avoid discussion or posts either whining about the information being posted direct from LDS sources by others or continuous "bashing" of the dreaded "antis" as is seen taking place on this very thread.

Speaking for the Inmans, we welcome any and all posts "defining mormonism beliefs", particularly any of them that are backed up by Biblical sources.

We especially welcome comments by mormons that abstain from the name-calling and personal remarks about anyone who rebuts the "defining mormonism" posts. Couching personal innuendoes and name-calling of those who differ, followed by a long list of "We should all love one another" Bible verses IMO is not "discussion", but could more accurately be called "venting".

P.S. Rebuttal is NOT "accusing" or "bashing".

Defining any difference in doctrine as bashing is as misleading as claiming that mormonism is Christianity.

From Grig: Here on FR when you go to post to the Religion forum you have the option of checking off what denomination(s) the post applies to. In there it lists the category of "Other Christian" as being specifically for "7th Day Adventist, Churches of God, Messianic Christians, Unitarian, LDS, etc."

It says EVERYTHING when a Mormon (Grig) comes on FR & lists a "designation" -- in this case being in the same category as Unitarian universalists...who believe all people will be saved & Jesus Christ is optional...as being A-OK with them!!!

Mormons, too believe just about EVERYBODY will be "saved"...
...Just as soon as all that stone "paperwork" from B.C. & A.D. Dark Ages times is uncovered so they can run the genealogy on all those folk...
...So that their teens can scurry into their Mormon temples, get dead-dunked by proxy for them, and then dead Lds missionaries will make the trek to that part of the spirit world where they are to show them "I'm a Mormon & you can be one, too commercials

The Spirit World, Our Next Home

If you think I'm "making this up," here -- Here's an 8-point summary of the article so that you can get an idea of what Mormons teach about the "spirit world":

1. The Mormon spirit world is "on this earth."
2. Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson declared that “the spirit world is not far away. Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin."
3. The wicked go to "spirit prison," which is not eternal hell. [Note: Lds remove eternal hell from their essential theology, even though the Book of Mormon talks about it]
4. The author references a spirit prison (1 Pet. 3:18–20, 1 Pet. 4:6) but then goes on to describe it as "chiefly a place of learning and waiting, not a place of suffering." [Oh. First Mormons eliminate the eternality of hell. Then they redefine actually as a "school," which I suppose for some students of our public schools, the same thing as "hell."]
5. "In short, the spirit world is the temporary home of the spirits of all mankind, whether they are good or evil. Thus Joseph Smith could declare that “the righteous and the wicked all go to the same world of spirits until the resurrection.” (Teachings, p. 310.) Yet some have wondered why Jesus promised the dying thief that after his death he would join the Savior in paradise. The Prophet Joseph taught: “King James’ translators make it out to say paradise. But what is paradise?"
6. So, instead of teaching that the righteous go to heaven, or really any "degree of salvation," Mormonism actually emphasizes a "dumbing down" where "all mankind" originally goes to the same place, no matter what! And guess what? God isn't there! Per Mormonism, "it is NOT the place where God the Father, the resurrected Lord, and other resurrected beings dwell. Rather, it is an intermediate condition or state where people await the resurrection—a sphere where disembodied spirits live in one of several conditions according to what their mortal lives have merited."
7. So, so far, trusting in Jesus Christ and relating to Jesus Christ amounts to what your life merits. You're just a cosmic Boy Scout.
8. Thus, Mormons remain "missionaries" on the other side. It's no place of rest as the Bible describes heaven. Yup, for Mormons "...the spirit world is the place where disembodied spirits go. It is a tangible, substantial sphere incorporated with our earth, the focal point of a massive missionary effort in which we share." Thus, they get to continue to earn their way to heaven by trying to bump up others along the way!

BTW, this is why Lds are so obsessed with genealogy & the dead! One of their "prophets," Joseph Fielding Smith, repeatedly said there wasn't anything more important for Mormons to do than to be so focused on the dead!

“Some may feel that if they pay their tithing, attend their regular meetings and other duties, give their substance to the poor, perchance spend one, two, or more years preaching in the world, that they are absolved from further duty, but the greatest and grandest duty of all is to labor for the dead!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol II, pp 42-44).

And: "The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead." (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 146).

"We have a great work before us in the redemption of our dead....There are fifty thousand millions of people in the spirit world...Those persons may receive their testimony, but they cannot be baptized in the spirit world, for somebody on earth must perform this ordinance for them in the flesh before they can receive part in the first resurrection and be worthy of eternal life." (LDS "prophet" Wilford Woodruff, JoD, Vol. 22, p. 234)

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