Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
[11] Say to them: As I live, saith the Lord God, I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?This clearly shows how unscriptural is the Calvinist caste-ideas of limited atonement.
[12] Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the children of thy people: The justice of the just shall not deliver him, in what day soever he shall sin: and the wickedness of the wicked shall not hurt him, in what day soever he shall turn from his wickedness: and the just shall not be able to live in his justice, in what day soever he shall sin.
[13] Yea, if I shall say to the just that he shall surely live, and he, trusting in his justice, commit iniquity: all his justices shall be forgotten, and in his iniquity, which he hath committed, in the same shall he die.
[14] And if I shall say to the wicked: Thou shalt surely die: and he do penance for his sin, and do judgment and justice,
[15] And if that wicked man restore the pledge, and render what he had robbed, and walk in the commandments of life, and do no unjust thing: he shall surely live, and shall not die.
[16] None of his sins, which he hath committed, shall be imputed to him: he hath done judgment and justice, he shall surely live.
[17] And the children of thy people have said: The way of the Lord is not equitable: whereas their own way is unjust.
[18] For when the just shall depart from his justice, and commit iniquities, he shall die in them.
[19] And when the wicked shall depart from his wickedness, and shall do judgments, and justice: he shall live in them
1 John2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.And also
1 Timothy 4:10 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.People may reject this grace, but the grace of Christ's sacrifice is sufficient (or as Aquinas said "superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race") for all. Those who reject this freely given grace, go to hell.
Ultimately, I do — in response to God's living appeal, given in four revelations....
As Socrates said, "God only is wise."
As far as doing any of those things after one is saved, yes, we still do commit them to some degree. Jesus taught that it was the heart that mattered. To lust after a woman is to commit adultery with her. To hate someone is equivalent to murder.
Sin is born in the heart long before it is expressed in the actions.
God knows we are still going to sin and has made provision for that. He is not going to damn us the minute we slip, like the Catholic church teaches, leaving its followers to hope that they die right after confession or communion before committing another sin.
Even in cases where there is long term sinful behavior, God will prematurely take that person before allowing them to go to hell. However, profession of a conversion experience without the resultant good works indicates that it never happened. Mere mental assent is not enough to save one. Even the demons believe and tremble. (James 2:19)
Genuine faith will result in fruit which shows up in works.
God WANTS us to be saved, which seems to be a foreign concept to most Catholics.
I'm not so much trying to attribute motives to you as I am trying to understand your actions....
Actions speak louder than words.
getoffmylawn: The opinions you've expressed here have quite often actually helped strengthen my faith
I am humbled. Of course I believe that people can change each others' minds. But, from the Christian point of view it is impossible. Therefore a Christian cannot blame another person for his or her loss of faith any more than he or she can credit another person for having faith, lest salvation/perdition depend on man.
From the Christian point of view, one could say you only think my opinions have helped strengthen your faith, but it would have to be God whose will it was that you perceive my postings in such a way as to achieve that result.
It all comes down to this: faith = salvation and salvation = God. This cuts me out, or anyone else, in deciding who is saved and who isn't.
What I most appreciate about your postings is the eloquent and rational way you make sense of our doubts without pulling a punch.
Strangely enough, other say I make no sense whatsoever, but thank you wholeheartedly. :)
I'm really adverse to fooling myself, but others seem to embrace self deception as if it were a life sustaining substance
I either know or don't know. If I have to "believe" then I am guessing. And if I am guessing then I am fooling myself.
You may not be able to cause someone to loose faith with your postings, but it seems you make many very uncomfortable with the notion all they believe is not so cut and dried
From the Christian point of view those Christians who'd admit to losing faith because of another man would give divine sovereignty to that man, thereby making him a god. Such Christians were no Christians to begin with, were they they? They used it only as a label and therefore were not among the "saved" in the first place.
I only share my opinions, fwiw, no different than anyone else. :)
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." -- John 10:26
Christ is the "savior of all people," meaning "all kinds of people," not just the Jews.
If Christ were "the savior of all people everywhere who ever lived," then all men everywhere who ever lived would be saved.
And they're not, unless you are a universalist.
Discernment matters. Try to cultivate it.
And yet the former, because they willed, believed; the latter, because they did not will believed not. Therefore mercy and judgment were manifested in the very wills themselvesas you said "According to Augustine's logic, men believe because God prepares the will".
The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."Mt 4:17 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high.The Church teaches God's grace is necessary to enable man to be lifted out of sin
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight
Then you are the final and supreme authority that determines if you are "saved" or not "saved." From your response, it seems you believe that man is the ultimate god.
Then there must be as many gods as there are believers! And God is just the provider, not not the decider! LOL! How convenient.
lol. So you’re now agreeing with the Protestant view that Augustine was a predestinarian.
Progress.
Regarding irresistible grace, if God sends the Holy Spirit to turn a man’s heart from sin to love of Christ, who is stronger? That man or the Holy Spirit?
The RCC believes that man is stronger than both the Holy Spirit and the specific intention of God.
That is laughable. My vote goes to the Holy Spirit and the will of God. If God has numbered a man to be among His family, that man will, at a time of God’s choosing, know his salvation has been won for Him by Christ alone, and thus he will believe, repent and obey to the saving of his soul. True faith and repentance to the acknowledging of our sins and obedience to His word are all free gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Christ alone. No “co-redeemer” nor “alter Christus” required.
By jumping to conclusions? If you want to understand why—ask.
Let me try to illustrate my point: if I give two people a multiple choice question and both of them give me the right answer, it doesn't mean they came to that answer the same way.
The only way for me to know how they made their choice is to ask them.
Actions speak louder than words
That is a banal sloganism that is utterly false because it implies reasons to why people do what they do. It is mind-reading.
And remember — Jesus Christ IS God. To deny Jesus is God automatically means that one is not a Christian. Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Orthodox etc agree that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God, you are not Christian
The difference between the Protestant method of debate and the RC method of debate is that the Protestant 1) uses the Scriptures as our guide and 2) decries actual beliefs of our opponents.
Whereas the Roman Catholic 1) ignores Scripture and 2) fabricates beliefs of his opponent.
Because your church appears not to understand the Scriptures, let me inform you that all men are called to repent of their sins, obey God and believe in Jesus Christ.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" -- Acts 17:29-30 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
See, there is the truth and power of God's word. In two short sentences we have a denunciation of the church in Rome's idolatry, and a declaration of God's command for all men to repent.
You're welcome.
And there you go. Thanks for admitting that you don't REALLY believe in the infallibility of scripture. Few Catholics will make such an admission. It puts them at odds with early Church teaching (and teaching as late as the 1600s). But then it's not the first major doctrine the Church has changed from what was taught by the fathers. The Church has left its first love a long time ago.
The early Nicene fathers never taught that the interpretation was infallible through Church teachings. They knew what was inspired and what wasn't. Jerome, Chrysostom and others must be turning over in their crypts.
What gives you the authority to do so? Are you being your own Pope in declaring doctrine?
I don't have to be a Pope to read what the early church fathers wrote on the inspiration of scripture and declared at council after council. The Church plainly no longer follows the teachings of the fathers. This is a case in point. It is disingenuous for Catholics to pretend that they do.
Again your post is an excerpt from someone else’s writing, yet you did not attribute that paragraph to another author.
That’s plagerism. Again.
You’ve had dozens of posts pulled for this infraction.
Are you completely ignorant of the FR rules, or do you not care that you break them?
So you keep saying.
Free and online. Neat.
God willing, learning about the sins of the past can help us in avoiding them today.
lololol
But your quote is from the Catholic Catechism. The Catholic Catechism is not what Augustine wrote. In fact, Augustine's document is at odds with this Catechism.
I will admit there may be some writing of Augustine that state that a person must persevere or do a bunch of works. But Augustine wrote the Perseverance of the Saints late in life after he came to the realization of this truth. While he declares that he recalled all of his books to be burned, I'm sure not everything was burned. So you have to put his writings on a timeline with this being one of his last (and greatest I might add) works. It's his spiritual growth.
Augustine's work was never accepted in the Church and most tend to ignore it. However, Augustine's argument for God changing the will is overwhelming and compelling. His reference to Cyprian teaching him this truth illustrates that 1) this was a view held by senior members in the Church, and 2) it was a difficult teaching to grasp.
A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints by Augustine
According to Augustine's logic, men believe because God prepares the will. Once God prepares the will in a believer, that person has obtained righteousness.
AMEN, Harley, our resident Augustinian scholar. 8~)
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