Is Prodigal Son Church and Older Brother Israel?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2015:11-32&version=KJV | marbren

[CynicalBear]

>>it could not be any clearer, it is orthodox Christian doctrine. beware of this 19th century invention you seem to hold to.<<

Galations 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Peace be on those for the circumcision and the uncercumcision. Then it separates out Israel. The church has NOT replaced Israel.

All other verses refer to the church as being grafted in. Anyone who believes the nonsense that the church has replace Israel has a rude awakening coming and it could be soon.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

is it true what some believe that believing Gentiles have been grafted in to Israel with unbelieving Jews???

NO, NO, NO.

believing Gentiles have been grafted in to Israel with believing Jews to make up THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST.

unbelieving Jews are no more “Israel” than unbelieving Irish or Germans. they all will die in their sin unless they believe in Jesus. Jewish DNA will mean nothing on judgement day. Paul tells us in Romans who a true Jew is and Galatians 6 that the Church is the Israel of God.

here is a quiz for all those who don’t accept this orthodox Christian doctrine:

Romans 11 states “so all Israel shall be saved”
Judas was an Israelite, everyone hopefully will agree with that. was he saved? wasn’t he part of “all Israel”?
if he wasn’t saved, “all Israel” must not be referring to Jewish nationality, correct?

finally, who are heirs to the promises made to Abraham, believers in Jesus Christ or physical Jews?

[CynicalBear]

>> Paul tells us in Romans who a true Jew is and Galatians 6 that the Church is the Israel of God.<<

I just showed you that Galatians 6 does NOT show that the church is Israel.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. He said the circumcision and that uncircumcision then separated out Israel. He was addressing those who are saved by grace, both circumcised and uncircumcised, and then singled out Israel as a separate entity. >> Romans 11 states “so all Israel shall be saved”<<

And Revelation and other prophecies tell us Israel will realize that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. Note the battle of Ezek. Another note you may want to take is that Damascus is still a city. Prior to 1948 no one believed that Israel would one day become a nation either.

[marbren]

believing Gentiles have been grafted in to Israel with believing Jews to make up THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST.

I agree we are presently in the age of grace. However, this dispensation is about to end very soon with the rapture of the church.

BTW I saw a neat rainbow today. God keeps his promises!

[smvoice]

Your posting of Rom. 11:26 as proof of a pattern ("Body of Christ=all that shall be saved=the Church=Israel") is the result of not knowing prophecy from mystery in the Bible. There is no excuse for it here, since Paul writes in Rom. 11:25 that this is a MYSTERY, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN. That would be the mystery, the Church the Body of Christ, in this present dispensation.

Verse 26 goes into PROPHECY. "as it is WRITTEN, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM (ISRAEL), when I shall take away their sins."

When the period of grace, verse 25, has run its course, God will again resume His dealings with Israel and bring the PROPHETIC program to a conclusion, as verse 26,27 clearly say.

Prophecy deals directly with Israel and the nations, not with the body of Christ.

A Jew coming to salvation today comes as an individual, not a Nation of people, through the finished work of Christ and is placed into the body of Christ. Where there is neither Jew nor Greek. It is about individuals in this present age, not nations.

[CynicalBear]

Well put!

[yldstrk]

what is dispensationalism

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

And upon the Israel of God The καὶ and may be simply collective, in which case the Israel of God may be different from as many as walk, etc., and may mean truly converted Jews. Or the καὶ may be explicative, in which case the Israel of God will define and emphasize as many as, etc., and will mean the whole body of Christians, Jewish and Gentile. In other words, they who walk according to this rule form the true Israel of God. The explicative καὶ is at best doubtful here, and is rather forced, although clear instances of it may be found in 1 Corinthians 3:5; 1 Corinthians 15:38. It seems better to regard it as simply connective. Then ὅσοι will refer to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively, and forming the true messianic community. this is from Vince Word Studies. if you still are not convinced, this same Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote Romans 9:6-8. you see there is reason the Church taught who the true Israel of God is for 2,000 years, it received it from the Apostles! your 19th century false teaching is part of false teachers arising and fooling many.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

The Scriptures do not teach this dispensational nonsense. No one in Church history ever heard of this “dispensationalism” until the 19th century, just like no one ever heard of mormonism or jehovah witnesses or 7th day adventist until then either!
people always come to salvation as individuals, never as nations.
when Jesus comes again, it will be the end of the world, judgement day. note this is a singular event, the Scriptures only teach ONE second coming, not a second and then a third.
i really am amazed how the clear teaching of Scripture about Israel have been successfully twisted against 2,000 years of historical, orthodox Christian doctrine. indeed, false teachers have arisen leading many astray.

[CynicalBear]

>>Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote Romans 9:6-8.<<

Oh good grief. I’m assuming you are referring to the text in bold in verse 8.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

You take that passage and try to build your presuppositions into that passage. How about let’s look at the rest of that passage to see what he meant by that statement?

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

You see that Jacob was a “child of God” but Esau although a “child of flesh” was not considered a “child of God”. It was the “children of promise” aka offspring of Jacob that were counted for seed even though Esau was also “seed” but God rejected that seed and didn’t call them “children of promise”. Trying in inject the church into that passage is complete error.

>> you see there is reason the Church taught who the true Israel of God is for 2,000 years<<

Don’t even go into “the Church” nonsense with me. The CC is so far off from true scripture it doesn’t deserve discussion.

[smvoice]

Wrong again. Rom. 9:6-8. Compare with Rom. 2:28,29 for the answer to who the true Israel of God IS.

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter: whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom. 2:28,29.

A true Jew is not the one who is circumcised in the flesh, neither is true circumcision in the flesh. A true Jew is one that has inward circumcision of the heart and in the spirit and has more than an outward cutting in the flesh and a profession of truth. This does NOT teach that every Christian is a Jew, "true Israel", but to be a true Jew one must be of the seed of Abraham, and have circumcision of the heart, AND be a child of the promise. PROPHECY. Which leads to Rom. 9:6-8.

This is about Israel. Literal Israel. Not the church the body of Christ. It's about the word of promise, PROPHECY, concerning a Nation, Israel. Don't believe me? Read Rom. 9:4. Israel, not the Church.

[smvoice]

Oh, really now. You don’t think that Jesus Christ understood dispensations and rightly dividing God’s word of truth?

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

The Church is a great offense to the devil and his followers since Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it and look at that, 2,000 years later and the words of Jesus have been proved true.
you are impressed Damascus is still a city?
i am impressed that the Holy Spirit has protected the Body of Christ, the Church for 2,000 years.
so keep attacking it, you join the Gnostics, Arians, Muslims, athiests, etc, etc. the gates of hell will not prevail against it, the Master promised.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

true Jew = believer = Israel = Church = Body of Christ

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of GOD has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.

this means not all physical Jews are part of Israel, whereas Gentile believers are grafted in to Israel.

answer this:

who are the heirs to the promises made to Abraham, physical Jews or believers in Jesus Christ??

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

Jesus Christ understands everything, He is eternal God.

but since these “dispensations” are just a figment of your imagination, the question is kinda of like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[smvoice]

No, this is what your man-made religion has TAUGHT you to believe. Not what it actually says, but what they want it to say in order to claim that they are “spiritual Israel”. The only problem with that is that about 3/4 of the Bible has to be “conformed” in order for that to be true. Since 3/4 is about Prophecy concerning a Nation, Israel. Wanting to be Israel does NOT make you Israel. And it strips you of what God truly gave to us in the age of grace. It’s a lose/lose situation to believe what you’ve been taught.

[CynicalBear]

>>The Scriptures do not teach this dispensational nonsense.<<

“until the fullness of the Gentiles come in”, then what?

[smvoice]

I didn’t ask you what you thought of dispensations. I asked you if you thought Jesus Christ understood dispensations and rightly dividing God’s word of truth. Yes or no would suffice.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

this is historical, orthodox Christian doctrine:

Galatians 3:27-29

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. AND IF YOU ARE CHRIST’S, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAMS OFFSRING, HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

question - was Israel the offspring of Abraham?

[CynicalBear]

the Gnostics, Arians, Muslims, athiests, etc, etc. the gates of hell will not prevail against it, the Master promised.