Posted on 12/22/2011 1:01:18 PM PST by Cronos
so, yes, the world IS getting better
That depends on when one says it was written — either at the end of Domitian (94 AD) or in 68-69 AD when Nero was still around.
I don’t technically “buy” either of these — whichever way I believe that Christ reigns in heaven. There will be an end, but Christ told us not to focus on the when.
yes, it is not in the Divine Liturgy after all..
in fact, even if it was written after 95 AD, it still talks about Nero’s fall and the time up to Titus Flavius Caesar Domitianus Augustus
Not really, this was written to the 7 churches facing persecution under Nero and then Domitian.
ok, so do you mean that circumcision is not required as per the Torah?
because you also said Paul were Jewish who followed Messiah in the keeping and teaching of Torah
From what i’ve read of Jewish commentaries on the book of Apocalypse, the book is dismissed entirely. Is that a fair statement?
“An angel told Daniel to “seal up the book” because they described things which would happen 500 years after he wrote. An angel tells John that he’s writing about events which “must soon happen,” and they’re 2000+ years in the future? Doesn’t make sense” —> good point.
These harken back to the Ebionites of the early centuries!! But there are other strange religions out there in the middle east -- the Mandeans are intriguing: they reject Moses, Jesus AND Mohammed as false prophets and claim their prophets were Adam, Seth etc. etc. up until John the Baptist.
Wait a minute — weren’t you guys also discussing this in 430 AD when Attila was at the gates? :) and then Alaric sacked the city later? and in 999? and when the Mongols threatened Europe? and on September 11, 1683 :)
Yes and one day we can all say "peace and safety" and then...well nevermind.
The 'world' might be getting better but spiritually speaking (at least in regard to those who have the ability to visit vast and sudden destruction on others at the press of a button)it is in dire straights.
The world is getting better....nuke Mecca and Medina now huh?.The god of this world will soon have some folks saying "peace and safety" but we are not,or should not,be ignorant of him or his deceits.
The end of Jerusalem in 69 AD is a very good example -- to Jews of that time, it WAS the end of the World. Judaiism was never the same after that -- it moved towards rabbinical Judaiism.
The Samaritans (or, as they call themselves, Israelites) who retained the Levitical priesthood and did not move to the rabbinical "way" give us an indication of the way it was.
But I digress -- for Jews and for that Jewish sect, Christianity, the destruction of Jerusalem WAS the end of the world, and this 7 headed beast that had conquered and destroyed it with "all the armies of the world" must have seemed insurmountable -- after all the Judeans had thrown everything at it and lost terribly (and the Romans knew how to destroy -- Cartageo delenda est). For the Christians who retained the very, very close ties to Judaism, Jewish law etc. it was the same tragedy as for the Jews, but probably worse and they disappeared. For those who had moved away and not tied themselves to Jerusalem, per se, the events of 69 AD were still the end of "the world", an era. They did not know what would happen next.
that is why, as campion pointed out, John was told not to close the book as the events are at hand.
As I pointed out in post 4, Augustine in the 4th century said The evangelist John has spoken of these two resurrections in the book which is called the Apocalypse, but in such a way that some Christians do not understand the first of the two, and so construe the passage into ridiculous fancies.
-- even Martin Luther considered it to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it"
time I checked, the world is NOT getting better — that check was wrong — people in India, China, South America, Asean, even Africa are living longer, healthier lives with more of the necessities of life
“The levels of poverty in each of those countries has dropped significantly comparing 2010 with 1980 — families where parents were illiterate laborers are now living as middle-class households with a roof over their heads, food, etc.
so, yes, the world IS getting better “
It’s just a sign of Daniel’s prophecy...”that in the latter days knowledge shall increase”. Science has allowed a bubble of better health and nutrition for larger segments of the world’s population. But science hasn’t increased Christ consciousness and morality. Rather we see “the great apostacy”! Hence...”the people shall travel to and fro” the sense of that verse suggesting moral rootlessness!
Here is where the “BIG LIE”, the heresy begins ... with those that claim Torah is connected to salvation. It is NOT.
What Torah brings is the blessings our Heavenly Father wished to bestow on us and the blessings ARE the terms of the covenant.
Dt 30:18-20 “I set before you blessing and cursing”
Just as there are terms to every covenant such as a marriage covenant which IS the foundation of the new covenant as it has always been the foundation of ALL covenants YHVH made with His chosen, the elect according to the fore knowledge of YHVH.
So yes, Torah does require circumcision for blessing but it is NOT a requirement for salvation. YHVH from the beginning has always put circumcision of the heart over that of the flesh. YHVH made covenant with Abraham and Abraham was blessed long before YHVH commanded him to be circumcised. If one studies, one finds that circumcision came about out of disobedience. Well that and the fact that “blood is one of the signs” of the covenant. But let's go back to the blessing and cursing.
What benefits come from circumcision? Life and health that leads to a long life. It is proven medical fact that uncircumcised males live shorter lives and are prone to infections that lead to a shortened life. These diseases also can and are passed to women which affects their ability to conceive. Thus blessings for those that follow Yah’s instructions and curses for those that don't. Blessings and curses just don't affect one person, they affect everyone around that person.
One of the oft cursed Torah instructions is that of food. Well ask yourself, wouldn't the Creator of all things know what is healthy for us and what is not? Would He not know what we put in our bodies brings either life or death, blessing or cursing? Of course He knew and thus the reason He set instruction as to what curses the body and what doesn't and since He doesn't change and neither does the DNA of what He called abomination where food is concerned. Would you as a parent set before your child something to eat that you knew was going to harm them physically and possibly even mentally? Our Heavenly Father is no different. He loves us so much that He took special care to let us know what is healthy for us and what is not and I thank Him for it daily as I no longer suffer from the affects of arthritis that I was not able to take medication for due to an allergy against all aspirin products. No more swelling and no more aches and pains with the ever changing barometer. The blessing has no only affected me, it has affected those around me that don't have to aid me in minuscule daily chores anymore like opening a new jar of pickles etc, etc.
Thus it is up to every individual what they chose as YHVH gave us the gift of choice, choose He which is Life or choose death. This is the crux of what Messiah and ALL his apostles taught. Learning Torah(which means instruction, not law) is not an overnight thing. No one is perfect, nor can we ever be but we are to seek righteousness and righteousness is following the ways of YHVH, not the ways of man.
John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the Torah, yet none of you keeps the Torah?
The Greek word “nomos” (law) was translated from the Hebrew word “torah” which is found in Ex 12:49 AND NOT to be confused with Eph 2 "ordinances" which is the Greek word “dogma” translated from the Hebrew word “dath” that is 1st found in Dan 2:13 where a decree was sent out by order of the king.
Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Thus, as with any home or civilized society, the foundation is formed with instructions on how to keep peace and unity with the house or society. In the home we call them ‘house rules”, in societies that are called ‘constitutions’. One is always under them, but not until we break them do we become subject to the penalty for breaking them and it was the “penalty” that was nailed to the cross, not the actual ‘house rules/constitution’.
Thus if we are the children of YHVH, then we are all subject to His house rules, ONE for all and all for ONE.
“One Nation, Under YHVH, with Liberty and Justice for All ... James 1:25 “But he who looks into the perfect Torah of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.” We can chose to be blessed or we can choose to be cursed, but if one rejects Torah as not for him then I give you with the words of Paul & John that the doctrine of Christendom conveniently omits in their teaching.
Rm 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Torah of God, nor indeed can be.
1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him ... 1John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God
Righteousness is obedience to YHVH, period. It is that simple and all He has ever asked is for His children to seek righteousness knowing full well that we are human. The definition of Faith is complete trust, the kind of trust every child has towards their parents. Faith is knowing He YHVH, as a loving parent, is always there to catch us when we stumble and pick us up when we fall with a firm but loving hand. Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were far from perfect, but they were faithful in seeking righteousness, therefore they found grace in the eyes of YHVH and from their righteousness, we are blessed. And it is our duty to continue that blessing for all generations to come by teaching our children and grandchildren in order that they are blessed and cloaked in the armor of YHVH so that they too can continue passing the blessings onto their future generations.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not ... 7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you
John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man
And...
Abraham, Isaac & Jacob were far from perfect, but they were faithful in seeking righteousness, therefore they found grace in the eyes of YHVH and from their righteousness, we are blessed.
I am pointing these out because in them *is* Hashem's definition of perfect. Noone can obtain "perfection" as man defines it, because noone can pin it down. What is acceptable in one place is an abomination in another. The goalpost can be raised or relocated, or a reward for "proper" behavior withdrawn or given to another. And people act as if it is Hashem who makes impossible demands.
Hashem's perfect:
Gen 6.9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect* in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Gen 17.1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect*.
*tamim - complete, whole, entire, sound
1 Kings 11.4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect* with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
Isa 38.2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, 3 And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect* heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
*shalem - complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace
Acts 13.21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Luke 5.22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? 23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? 24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. 25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.
John 5.5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? 7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. 8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. 9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
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