Posted on 01/21/2012 1:33:21 PM PST by NYer
What a nice post! I consider you to be my sibling (brother/sister...since I don’t know which) in Christ. I also believe that such familial unity in Christ is going to become much more important in the days to come.
Being Houston born and raised, and now living in California, I sure miss street preachers.
I miss getting out of the car to go into a 7/11, and having someone speak to me about Christ and salvation.
Thank you! Amen!
****....and feel comfy in your man-made thelogy,***
Man made theology? Complete with chapter and verses right out of the Bible. Jesus, Luke, Matthew, John, Paul, Peter and a few others men.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Please notice all this is in PAST TENSE as something ALREADY DONE.
What!
It is a given.
All or most of the epistles are addressed to Churches. Yes! Local Churches! He is not telling you to just go on your own. Notice when we try to figure something on our own we should first think this guide: Who, What ,Why, How, And When on a subject.
On the first is Who and only who can tell you alot. Who?= The Roman Churches! Yes a Group not an individual. Romans plural. To say he believes in no Church or assembly is ridiculous.
NOTICE WHAT IS SAID THEN THE ACTIONS SPEAK WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE CHURCH(PLURAL)
ACTS 2:
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
NOW LOOK AT THEIR ACTIONS!
The Fellowship of the Believers(PLURAL)
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.
44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They SOLD property and possessions to GIVE to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
I think you mean who stays the course.
Do you folks still have the sin of presumption or did you throw that out along with respect for life and the duetrocanicals?
Yes we know Paul we also know that he also wrote Phillipians 3:13-14 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
You wrote:
“We know that we are saved by Christ.. His sacrifice was SUFFICIENT , no work needs to be added to His..”
So, you don’t even have to believe in Jesus? After all, you’re saying His sacrifice is sufficient so nothing else - nothing at all - is required...not even faith on your part, right?
First of all, even Catholics (and Orthodox, and every other ancient liturgical church) address and describe J*sus as "our [or my] savior." Simple logic dictates that in order to have a savior, one must be saved. If one is not saved, one has no savior; one has only a potential savior. Yet Catholic prayers do not refer to J*sus as a "potential savior" but as a "savior," implying a fait accompli. Why get mad at Protestants for simply taking this universal chrstian convention logically?
Second, there is simply a logical problem with Catholicism's partial antinomianism (antinomianism with respect to the Torah of Moses, nomianism with respect to the Catholic ceremonial). This was something I never could make sense of, no matter how hard I tried. Every antinomian statement in Paul's epistles is arbitrarily applied to Jewish law and ceremonial (which is actually in the Bible), while a post-Biblical system whose calendar and rituals are derived from paganism are exempted from this critique. Does no Catholic anywhere see the problem with this? Catholics think that such things as Passover seders, laying tefillin, calculating the time of the new moon, and celebrating Purim were "done away with," whereas rosary beads, celebrating the 25th of December, and observing church obligations not the apostle's target. And technically this is right, for not even the most fanatical liturgical will claim that the current church ceremonial sprang forth on the first "pentecost." That ceremonial is indeed ancient and much more "authentic" than Protestants want to admit, but it was not part of the "chrstianity of the first hour."
Now let's summarize this last point: the first part of the Bible establishes an elaborate ceremonial; the "second part" (the apostles of Paul) allegedly abolish this ceremonial. Protestants get that. What they don't get is claiming that a post-Biblical ceremonial is less onerous to the claims of "salvation by grace" than the original Biblical one would have been. Am I making any sense? Does anyone understand what I'm saying?
While Protestants don't ascribe any salvific merit to the Jewish ceremonial, neither do they think observing it is inherently evil; hence the rabid Hebrew sentimentalism of so many Fundamentalist Protestants. Observing the commandments does not good, but it does no harm. This is contrasted with the Catholic/Orthodox position that observance of the Jewish law is not only superfluous but forbidden, but that the developing post-Biblical church ceremonial is the absolutely necessary "means" by which J*sus' salvation is channeled to chrstians.
Let me make a further illustration: Catholics/Orthodox insist that the Jewish calendar was replaced by the chrstian one. Think about this for just a moment. The Jewish calendar (unless one is a liberal higher critic) was created by G-d and not adopted from any prior culture. It and all its rules and regulations were given orally to Moses at the beginning of Exodus 12. This included esoteric information about the length of the lunar month, the molad ("birth" of the new moon), and a set of elaborate calculations--all from the Mouth of G-d Himself. This is what Catholicism/Orthodoxy insists was "done away with." Now almost all chrstians believe the same, including the most anti-Catholic Protestants. But Catholicism/Orthodoxy doesn't stop here. It actually insists that the Roman calendar adopted by Julius Caesar (and whose very months are named for pagan deities) has replaced this calendar by the will of G-d. All those complicated, elaborate calculations given directly by G-d allegedly evaporated to be replaced with a calendar whose calculation the church inherited from pagan Rome. Can no Catholic see why some might find this position problematic?
Before leaving this topic I simply must address the reflexive Catholic reaction of invoking the epistle of James. Despite Catholic dogma, James presided over a Jewish church that still observed the Law of Moses--a "system of works" to which Catholicism is allergic. James' church eventually became the "heretical" Ebionites and were lost to history. The notion that James presided over an orthodox Catholic church is every bit as naive as the notion that he presided over an ancient congregation of Jewish Southern Baptists.
Thirdly, with regard to the issue of purgatory vs. "going straight to Heaven": the Protestant (at least Fundamentalist Protestant) notion of "Heaven" is different from that of Catholics/Orthodox. Adam was not destined to "go to Heaven." He was already in paradise, and he had done absolutely nothing to deserve living there. It was simply G-d's Will that man be placed there. It was his "natural home," so to speak. I know that Catholics/Orthodox regard the earthly paradise as temporary and that Adam would have eventually been translated, but most Fundamentalist Protestants have never even heard of this. To them there never was a higher "beatific" state which Adam or any other human being was meant to "deserve" after a probationary period. There was just the paradise in which he was initially placed. Thus it is only natural that for them, once J*sus has been vicariously damned in the place of every human being (granted, a position alien to Catholicism/Orthodoxy) there is no further purgation or preparation necessary. Heaven in the only alternative to Hell. Once a Protestant "gets saved" he reverts to status quo ante. He can't go to Hell because he's already there (in the person of J*sus' vicarious damnation). So all that's left is the natural state in which Adam was created, ie, "Heaven" (the Heaven of disembodied spirits is considered a contingency that came into being only as a result of the "fall"). To speak of the unworthiness of the individual chrstian to experience Heaven immediately upon death makes no more sense than to speak of Adam not deserving to live in Paradise without first becoming "worthy."
I know that I have been very unpleasant many times, but in this post I have tried to avoid all that and simply explain the Protestant position and why the Catholic position, which Catholics think is so reasonable, is simply nonsensical to Protestants. I have explained as best as I can and have not engaged in any of my usual name-calling or unpleasantness. I hope Catholics and Orthodox who read this will try to understand and stop acting as if the Protestant position were completely ridiculous.
Catholics and Orthodox are justly proud of a two thousand year history of spirituality and intellect. There is no need to engage in name-calling and insults. The Catholic/Orthodox position is based on a completely different set of assumptions than the Protestant one. Please just try to explain this position to them as I have tried to explain theirs to you. Please.
Thank you.
I suggest you need to grasp this: that all the epistles were written to people that were already born again. Those letters are to be read and understood in THAT context.
“Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints....” Romans 1:6,7
Paul reminded the saints in Rome about their conversion: “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”. Romans 6:3,4
**Please notice all this is in PAST TENSE as something ALREADY DONE.**
That’s right! And what did the Ephesians do?......let’s look at their initial conversions in Acts:
19:1 we read that Paul came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples that apparently had a belief in Jesus Christ (possibly from the testimony of Apollos. 18:28).
vs 2. He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
vs 3. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptised? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
vs 4. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
vs 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
vs 6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
vs 7. And all the men were about twelve.
Regards
...and sin mightily but believe even more mightily.
Calvinism is a whole bunch of truths and explanations of a train wreck in a nutshell. Astute post.
50 million dead babies later we are wandering in the desert deluding ourselves into thinking that if only we elect the right president an right Congress that everything will be ok.
And to be delusional is something we accuse the left of.
“
None of us deserves to be saved.”
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