Real Enough? — Relics, Gopher Wood, and the Sufficiency of Scripture

Our confidence that the account of the flood and Noah’s ark happened in space, time, and history is grounded in the Bible, not in remnants of ancient timber.

For centuries, an inordinate and unhealthy attention has been directed to certain items claimed to be relics of Christ, Christian leaders, or illustrious Christians. The veneration of relics has been a major feature of Roman Catholic popular piety since the earliest centuries of its history, reaching its highest official sanction in 787, when the Second Council of Nicaea decreed that every church should have some relic at the altar.

Now, much attention is being paid to the first public display of the so-called “Shroud of Turin,” in Italy. As David Farley explained in USA Today, “The Catholic Church’s most famous (and infamous) holy relic is being exposed to the faithful for the first time since the year 2000. The Shroud of Turin, on display until May 23 in the handsome northwestern Italian town, can be shown by permission only from the pope.”

Evidently, more than 1.5 million people signed up for reservations to see the shroud during its brief display. Clearly, the artifact means something to many people — indeed, it means a very great deal.

The shroud is but the most famous of the relics held to be holy by so many Catholics. Various churches hold items claimed to be portions of the crib of Jesus, items from the disciples and prominent saints, and various body parts of leading figures. David Farley recently wrote a book on what must certainly go down as the most bizarre claim concerning a relic — the claim of a church in the tiny Italian village of Calcata to hold the remains of Christ’s infant circumcision. Of course, the special status of this relic was the fact that, according to the claim, this skin was the only remnant of Christ’s body on earth.

As Farley documents, eventually there were many churches and communities that claimed to possess this special holy relic. Eventually, the Roman Catholic Church became embarrassed by the claims, and Pope Leo XIII threatened excommunication to any Catholic who even mentioned the relic. That did not end the fascination.

The veneration of relics, still a part of popular piety among many Roman Catholics worldwide, is a grotesque distortion of biblical piety. The authority for our faith is not based on the evidence of relics, but on the fact that God has spoken to us in his Word. We are to trust the truthfulness of the Bible, not the existence of some relic, authentic or not.

Of course, most of these relics are not authentic — a fact easily determined by even a casual review of the story behind the item. Furthermore, the existence of contradictory claims, such as were made by competing villages with respect to the circumcision remains of Christ, demonstrates the embarrassing fact that these claims cannot be trusted.

The best evidence concerning the “Shroud of Turin” is that it dates to the medieval period and is probably an artifact of human artistry. In David Farley’s words, “a medieval fake.” Nevertheless, more than a million and a half people are lining up to see it, representing far more than historical curiosity. Farley also reports that relics associated with St. Therese of Lisieux went on a 28-city tour of Britain last year, also drawing huge crowds. Clearly, interest in and veneration of relics is not a thing of the past.

In his essay, Farley acknowledges that many people retain belief in the power and authenticity of relics such as the “Shroud of Turin,” and then comes to this conclusion:

If they accept the shroud as the real deal, then, in their minds, in their hearts, in their conceptions of heaven and the afterlife, it is the real thing. They will pray in front of it and it will give them happiness and relief.

And isn’t that what we all want, for ourselves and for each other? Which is exactly why holy relics and the Shroud of Turin still matter in this world.

No, that is not what we are to want. The “happiness and relief” found in these relics is empty and delusional. Christians are to find happiness and relief and infinitely more in Christ alone. The obsession with relics comes at a grave cost — the confusion of the Gospel, the marginalization of Christ, and the subversion of the Bible’s sufficiency.

The leadership of the Roman Catholic Church has failed its members and betrayed the Gospel by embracing and allowing various forms of the veneration of relics, and this particular feature of Catholic piety and theology cannot be isolated from the larger project of Catholic doctrine.

Evangelical Christians observing the veneration of relics by Catholics are rightly horrified by the practice, but may be wrongly satisfied that nothing like this marks evangelical piety.

This temptation should be checked by the realization that many evangelicals fall prey to similar modes of thinking. Consider the attention given in recent days to the claim that remnants of Noah’s ark had been found on Mount Ararat in Turkey. A team from “Noah’s Ark Ministries International,” based in Hong Kong, claimed that wood found on the mountain came from Noah’s ark — with a certainty of “99.9 percent.”

Archaeologists remain skeptical about the claims, and the controversy is likely to continue for some time. But Christians should not give too much attention to such claims in the first place. Our confidence that the account of the flood and Noah’s ark happened in space, time, and history is grounded in the Bible, not in remnants of ancient timber.

If archaeologists later agree that the fragments are indeed from Noah’s ark, that will be a matter of real interest to Christians, but this should add nothing to our confidence in the Bible. If the fragments are determined to be authentic or, most likely, if there is no consensus at all, this will not detract anything from the truthfulness, authority, and sufficiency of the Scriptures.

Um, no. We Orthodox have not had problems with pedophiles and we usually manage to discipline errant priests and even bishops (though that sometimes takes some doing and happens rather less quickly than it should).

The Latins who lately had problems with pedophiles sent Crusaders to try to forcibly convert us back in the 13th century. In his reply to the Crusaders’ demands that the Rus submit to Papal rule, St. Aleksandr Nevsky replied “Our doctrines are those of the Apostles. . . the tradition of the Holy Fathers of the Seven Councils we scrupulously keep. As for your words we do not listen to them and we do not want your doctrine.”

The author of the piece objects to the common patrimony of Christians, not to something peculiar to the Latin church: Orthodox, Latins, Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, Syrian Jacobites, and Assyrians all venerate relics. And, as the author notes, the Seventh Ecumenical Council (for us Orthodox and for the Latins) explicitly established the practice. If you want I can defend the practice on the basis of the Scripturally-grounded Orthodox doctrine of salvation as theosis (though why the Latins, whose doctrine of salvation involves not theosis but “the beatific vision” kept the practice I don’t know they don’t really have a theological/anthropological basis for it like we do — though it seems to be dying out among them: my bishop has been given many relics by Latin bishops who don’t feel they have any use for them. I’m hoping one day he’ll give our little mission part of the relic of our patron, St. Mary Magdalene, he has in his keeping.)

And, no, I wasn’t questioning the divine inspiration of the Holy Apostle Paul’s letters, though it is customary to make a distinction among the Persons of the Trinity with regard to actions, the inspiration of Scripture being the activity of the Spirit, rather than the Son, so quoting Paul when someone asked when Jesus said something either misses the point or requires explanation.

You wrote:

“We Orthodox have not had problems with pedophiles”

Truth says otherwise: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/bosnian-orthodox-priest-charged-for-pedophilia

“Group calls for Greek Orthodox to Stop Hiding Pedophile Priests” http://www.pokrov.org/display.asp?ds=Article&id=995

http://www.ocanews.org/news/SeraphimVisiting9.28.11.html

You also wrote:

“The Latins who lately had problems with pedophiles sent Crusaders to try to forcibly convert us back in the 13th century.”

Nope. No Crusaders were sent to “forcibly convert” you to anything. The Crusaders of the Fourth Crusade were in serious debt to the Venetians - and on their own authority - got involved is the sickening cesspool of Byzantine dynastic politics (Isaac II a usurper - blinded by another usurper, etc.). Make a long story short, the Crusaders had no money and were appalled at the actions of the Greeks, so the seized control of Constantinople and looted the city - for which they were condemned by the city. Try to get the story right.

“In his reply to the Crusaders’ demands that the Rus submit to Papal rule, St. Aleksandr Nevsky replied “Our doctrines are those of the Apostles. . . the tradition of the Holy Fathers of the Seven Councils we scrupulously keep. As for your words we do not listen to them and we do not want your doctrine.””

This is the same Nevsky who had no problem serving the pagan Mongols right? Not exactly a truly great hero. I guess when you’re the loser to the invaders, you can’t do much but kowtow to them though, right?

“though why the Latins, whose doctrine of salvation involves not theosis but “the beatific vision” “

Uh, Reader, you might want to actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

460. The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”(2Pet 1:4): “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God (Irenaeus)...”The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods” (Athanasius).

654. Justification...brings about filial adoption so that men become Christ’s brethren...We are brethren not by nature, but by the gift of grace, because that adoptive filiation gains us a real share in the life of the only Son, which was fully revealed in his Resurrection.

1996. Our justification come from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

2009. Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life” (Council of Trent). The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due...Our merits are God’s gifts” (Augustine).

That should be “for which they were condemned by the pope” in regard to Constantinople.

This is what Pope Innocent III himself wrote:

“How, indeed, is the Greek church to be brought back into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See when she has been beset with so many afflictions and persecutions that she sees in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs?”

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1204innocent.asp

There’s no reason for anyone to spread falsehoods about the crusades when the truth - both good and bad - is so easily accessible.

In my studied opinion the Shroud of Turin is real. Since it, because of many many aspects, looks very much like it really is the burial cloth of Christ I believe it is still here because The LORD has preserved it. Because there are many fake artifacts and because many people worship artifacts which is wrong doesn't mean that there is not the real thing.

The LORD is extremely gracious and may well have left evidence of His resurrection knowing that believing in Him in such a materialistic and wicked world would not be easy. While He was here He not only taught by word but also did many miracles and signs. People who refused to believe refused no matter how many miracles He did, but those that would believe had their faith strengthened by seeing all of the miracles He did. People back then were helped to believe by seeing evidence as well as hearing His words. People are still the same today. Seeing something real that proves that Christ is real is helpful for some.

God works in many ways to bring His sheep in. Some have become believers because of the witness of the Shroud of Turin. Not all are as strong as you and need only The Bible and nothing else to believe (not that anyone is beyond having their faith strengthened). The LORD has worked in many mysterious ways and we should not try to put Him into a small box of our own making. That said, if somebody does something contrary to The Holy Word of God or if something contradicts The Holy Word of God then it is wrong. Worshiping something like the Shroud of Turin is contrary to The Bible, but seeing it as something that agrees with The Bible and strengthens one faith is not wrong.

The LORD gave material witnesses to spiritual truths in The Bible. The ark of the covenant he gave to the Jews as a visible reminder of the covenant He had made with them. The temple was a physical place where He communed with Israel even though He did not need a physical place as He is everywhere. He did these things to help support their belief in Him. Also, all of creation with it's order and beauty is a testimony to Himself. The heavens declare the glory of God. The LORD is shown forth in other than The Holy Bible, but again if something contradicts His Holy Word than it should be revealed as such and disavowed.

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Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

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Jhn 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

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Psa 19:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

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Psa 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

Relics

Mark 15:43; John 19:38 - Joseph of Arimathea sought Christ’s dead body instead of leaving it with the Romans. Joseph gave veneration to our Lord’s body.

Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 - the women came to further anoint Christ’s body even though it had been sealed in the tomb.

John 19:39 - Nicodemus donated over one hundred pounds of spices to wrap in Jesus’ grave clothes. This is also veneration of our Lord’s body.

Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the hemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ’s cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul’s handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow healed the sick. This proves that relics of the saints have supernatural healing power, and this belief has been a part of Catholic tradition for 2,000 years.

Rev. 6:9 - the souls of the martyrs are seen beneath the heavenly altar. Their bones are often placed beneath altars in Catholic churches around the world.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha’s bones bring a man back to life. The saints’ bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.

Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7 – we are taught to honor the people of God and in 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11 – we are reminded to imitate them. Keeping relics of the saints serves both to honor and imitate their heroic faith in Christ (just as keeping articles of deceased loved ones helps us honor and imitate them).

As a non Catholic I do not venerate nails, bones or other items said to have been part of the history of the Church or The Bible. I glory in the cross. My focus, worship and "veneration" is upon Jesus Christ who, I believe, all true saints of God would also have had their focus upon. None of them would have wanted us to spending our adoration on any other but God Himself.

The Shroud of Turin is more than a relic. It is evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It has captured, by an astounding negative picture, a glimpse into one of the most important points of all of time. For any honest, thinking person who has carefully studied the evidence it is amazing proof that Jesus Christ actually did rise from the dead. It has helped many who sought truth to believe that what The Bible says is the truth. It shows forth the resurrection power of Jesus Christ which is spoken about in The Bible. The Shroud of Turin is not a bone or a nail said to be an item from the history of The Bible and often as not really isn't. It is a powerful confirmation of The Word of God.

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MarK 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

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Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

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Romans 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: ____________________________________________

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

Technically, that is 66 books. More exactly, our devotion is to the Word of God, not simply a book.

Think about it this way,...there are 3 things God provides us which are adequate and sufficient for us to have relationship with Him,..The plan of God the Father, The Word of God, and the ministry of God the Holy Spirit manifest in the Pastor-teacher spiritual gift,...all through faith in Christ.

The Word of God is identified with the Son of God, and we come face to face with Him in studying His Word.

2) Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

In numerous places. From Moses to John, God has no problem in communicating to man by His Written Word. Not one jot nor tittle will not come to pass from His Word.

3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

His Word is adequate and sufficient for every good work.

4) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?

We find numerous places in the New Testament where Christ is quoted in referencing the Scripture of the Old Testament.

We also find the gifts of Apostleship and the cessation of gifts in the New Testament. We also find admonitions not to add or subtract from His Word and commentary of the adequacy and sufficiency of His Word for every good work.

This listing of the canon of Scripture is extra-biblical, though may also be divinely inspired.

If you look up every epistle/letter you will see it starts with a plural meaning Church or the Leader of the Church. Nowhere is it first address to the individual in the back row in it’s title. It goes to THE Leader of the Church for the Church. Or from a leader to a Church.
The Leader of a Church or The Churches. Because of Geography it is really a Group of Churches meaning One Church (umbrella) as a Whole. Notice the City Churches. The Epistles/Letters Are addressed to Cities.

The New Testament: The Epistle of Paul to the Romans

The New Testament: The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians

The New Testament: The Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians

The New Testament: The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians

The New Testament: The Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians

The New Testament: The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians

The New Testament: The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians

The New Testament: The First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians

The New Testament: The Second Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians

The New Testament: The First Epistle of Paul to Timothy

The New Testament: The Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy

The New Testament: The Epistle of Paul to Titus

The New Testament: The Epistle of Paul to Philemon

The New Testament: The Epistle to the Hebrews

The New Testament: The Epistle of James

The New Testament: The First Epistle of Peter

The New Testament: The Second Epistle of Peter

The New Testament: The First Epistle of John

The New Testament: The Second Epistle of John

The New Testament: The Third Epistle of John

The New Testament: The Epistle of Jude

The New Testament: The Book of Revelation

Also Notice the end of the Bible.

REVELATION 22:

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony FOR THE CHURCHES. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

TO GIVE YOU[A] THIS TESTIMONY FOR THE CHURCHES.

It is Through The Churches.

You know you are shooting yourself in the foot. My attacks on protestants for abandoning and sneering at the patrimony of the ancient and undivided Church are more effective when it is clear that I am not a Latin. And drawing a sharp distinction is important.

By way of brief answer: Note that Abp. Seraphim was suspended, the Greek priest cited was defrocked.

It is precisely because the "pagan" (actually mixed religion -- some of the Mongol hordes were pagan, some Buddhist, some Nestorian Christian) Mongols did not interfere with religion -- the Mongol Empire was the first large-scale political entity with general religious toleration -- that Nevsky allowed Novgorod to become tributary to the Mongols, but fought the Teutonic Knights, who were blessed by the Pope to reduce the "schismatics" to Papal jurisdiction. Actually not fighting the Mongols, whose only interests were worldly is a sign of Nevsky's sanctity as much as fighting the Crusaders.

Yes, the last catechism shifted a lot of teaching 'eastward', but for over 1000 years, the "beatific vision" stood at the height of Latin teaching on salvation, and the basis for the veneration of relics as the bodies of deified men and women was missing. (If you teach the same, why are your bishops giving away relics?)

I don’t always bother to post on these threads, because they are so silly.

The relationship between the Bible and the Church has already been discussed, so I will simply mention the relation between ourselves, the Bible, and the world.

The world is not evil. It was created by God, and only partly corrupted by man and original sin. Everything that God made was “good,” or “very good,” as it says in the opening of Genesis.

We were not brought into this world to live our whole lives with our noses stuck in the Bible. We were also brought here to live with and love other people—spouses, children, family, friends, community, country. And we were brought into this life to try, as far as possible, to understand reality. God completely transcends His creation, yet it is through his creation, and through other people, and most especially through His Church and its Sacraments, that we are enabled to come to Him. The Bible plays a part in that, but it is not the whole thing—or Sola Scriptura—a phrase that you will not find in the Bible.

Curiosity, properly used and controlled, is a good thing. Why would it make us better persons if we refuse to ask what gopher wood is? Or if we turn up our noses and refuse to study history?

Ignorance, even invincible ignorance, lies in that direction.

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