Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

NO! I didn't ask for this.

I meant being hurt. Don't accept it - it's not from God.

What I don't accept anymore is that somehow these believers are showing the love of Christ to another member of the body.

They aren't and I think it's possible they don't know Him. But I don't care about them but you.

You know who you are in Christ. And we know sickness is not from God - it's a curse and He said He took the curses. You have the power and authority not to accept those words spoken to you. Erase them from your mind and replace them what Jesus says. If any words from them pop up - laugh at them for they mean nothing. Do what you can to rid yourself of those words with God's Word.

You know they are wrong. Why don't they know it? Can we assume you know more than them? Sure looks like it. Think of the hurt or any sickness as one big bug on you - you would shake it off and stomp on it. It doesn't belong to you. I guess what I'm saying is be angry at 'it' hurt and sickness that came to invade and kick it out/aside and not those who don't know what they are doing/saying.

I'm just one of the have not's because I'm not good enough, I'm not spiritual enough, I don't have enough faith, it didn't work for me like it worked for you, because God didn't work according to their formula.

That's not true and I'm rejecting those words. And I hope you do, also. And never to remember them anymore. Then start with a fresh slate on who you are in Christ. And the centurion couldn't even say that!

My healing is NOT dependent on the amount of faith I have

EXACTLY!! God gave us all 'the' measure - We are all given the same.

On this earth, I don't know. in heaven, yes.

Healing is for now not heaven where we have spiritual bodies.

But how dare you sit in judgment on another believer and tell them they're not good enough because God isn't working in their lives as you think He ought to, and because they aren't doing it your way.

WHAT??? Are you talking to me or ranting on about those other folk?

the damage (hurt)done to my spiritual life is not to be scorned or sneered at and not everyone is as strong willed or well grounded in Scripture as I am.

Good!. Then you also know "No weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me," declares the LORD" and so much for your hurt spiritual life.

I don't want your sympathy, but neither do I want your judgment and condemnation.

WOW! You never got it even though you claimed being hurt by words of others. In fact, this is how it all started - you wanting me to takes sides and judge others for the those 'victims' and I was condemn for it.

If that's how you interpreted my posts I don't want your sympathy, but neither do I want your judgment and condemnation it could leave one to wonder just how you interpreted those you say rejected and spoke about you.

My posts are there to see where and who was looking for sympathy and never got it and who was judging and exactly who was condemned for not condemning others. They are here but I'm outta here!

If you think it’s a fail - you go right ahead.

I don't "think" it's a fail I "know" it's a fail. Until these healers get into the hospitals and have their so called healings verified, and where medical staff can validate this...then the ministry they claim is bogus. Very few of these healings prove to be so when they are investigated after these hyped healing services...as well people have died getting caught up in that hype thinking they were healed. Others faith has been completely shattered....not to mention just as Metmom has stated...the "blame" game of not having enough faith etc.

The Apostles didn't know the people they healed either and they certainly didn't make the people "work" at getting enough faith or somehow trying to determine where they were in their faith......rather the Apostles sought God to heal tthem and it was a done deal.

OK buster, you can come down off your high horse. Do you speak to everyone the same? Do you speak to your family like you do strangers. I'm not an apostle on the healing road - I'm talking to metmom who I know as a believer. And what are you telling me about faith and working for it to me? Did you check my posts - did I say that?

I don't "think" it's a fail I "know" it's a fail.

You already shown you don't know much. And then believing healing ministries are bogus all you want - it won't stop others from being healed. My healing is verified by ME and my family/friends and it had nothing to do w/someone's ministry. Do you actually think some care what you see as bogus and should care enough to verify to suite some unbeliever? Now that is funny! Just continue to believe they are bogus and there is no such thing as healing. The rest of us don't need a 'verify file'.

You continue to believe as you see fit and I'll continue to believe The Truth. Now I'm onto important stuff.

Interesting that you bring up why some are healed and some are not. Even though it is 25 years ago I remember him warning everybody that some will be healed and some will not be healed but the greater more important good would be a spiritually grown faith for eternity.

He did claim he did not understand why not every one. He did talk the reality of it. Some were bodily healed some were not bodily healed. But spirit wise though everyone for that moment knew there was a real loving Jesus. I felt a beautiful peace in the name of Jesus from that man.

In my eyes he was not a phony type talking like some on tv. He was down to earth. He did not sound high and mighty like others. Also seeing the peach fuzz hair grow on the nine year old blew me away. The parents were really stunned. So genuinely real to me. My neighbor was a real miracle.

In scripture we have instances were we have no healing because of no faith( MARK 6:1-6) and then we have others were it is a burden to bear. Look at Paul the Apostle's thorn(2 Corinthians 12:7-10). God said it was not to be puffed up if I remember.

I know if every pray for healing I asked happened I would be a very puffed up person. And I had some answered miraculously. Some were not. Like now I have a condition that is not terminal but is a burden. My spirit inside is Holy Spirit Peace through Christ even though bodily not so good. I have not had a confirmation but a sense that this is making me a better more mature Christian.

Praise Be To God!

Praise be to Jesus!

Lots of very prissy gilded rocks are thrown at folks who are doing an authentic ministry of The Lord more or less as best they know how. A number of ministers are not to my taste and I’m more than a little concerned about a few of them. However, unless God has me in a position to exhort them directly or warn a vulnerable immature about something amiss in such a ministry . . . I’d prefer to avoid throwing rocks at them. It’s a hazardous hobby.

What you call rock throwing we call warning, and we aren't *throwing rocks*.

How can you put yourself in a position to warn others and expect them to take your warnings if you refuse to listen when others try to warn you but rather accuse them of throwing rocks? You need to turn off the emotions for a bit and just simply READ what has been said and not take it as a personal attack.

We recognize that what we are warning/criticizing is what you also believe, but that is not an attack on you, or God, or the Holy Spirit.

There are legitimate concerns about the excesses and problems within pentecostalism which need to be addressed, and it's not going to happen when you get so defensive about it to the point of not listening but instead knee jerk accusing people of rock throwing. It's no different from what so many people do when they quote Matthew 7:1-5 when someone points out error in their theology or sin in their lives.

What's not from God needs to be weeded out for what is from God to be taken seriously, because if what's not from God is not addressed, then what is from God is tarnished.

The best approach is to thank the person for their concern and prayerfully consider that they actually might have a point, especially if they can produce a number of Scripture passages to support what they're saying.

In scripture we have instances were we have no healing because of no faith

That card won't play...for we also have scripture where there was no faith and people were healed as follows:

Christ did not require faith for everyone, faith is not demanded as a precondition for one to receive a miracle. When faith was required it was in Jesus, not necessarily that one believes they could be healed. The faith movement says faith is a condition for our healing those who are not healed, failed because they did not have the required amount of faith for God to react.

Healings were done in numerous ways. By the person's faith, by intermediary prayer by another, and by God himself with no faith from the person present.

Matt. 8:5-10 It was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant. If we apply this today those who have enough faith for their own healing can apply it to everyone else to be healed.

Mk.5:35-43The daughter of Jairus was healed from the fathers faith

Mk.2:5 Jesus healed the paralytic not because of his faith but of the four men who carried him.

Lk.17:11-19 Jesus healed all 10 but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one to possess true saving faith.

Jn.11 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith he was dead, neither did anyone else believe it could occur then. It was done so they could believe. (also Lk8:54).

Lk.8:26-39 The demoniac of Gadarene was healed without asking before he was capable of expressing his faith.

Lk.2:50-51 Jn.18:10 When peter cut of the ear of Malchus Jesus healed him without any faith present.

(let us reason)

Think of what it would be like to go into a hospital among the sick and the dying, walk up and down the hall and touch people and heal them like Jesus did..... Wouldn't it be wonderful to go into the Cancer Ward and the Heart Disease Ward and the Aids Ward, and all the other places and just heal everybody...... And somewhere along the line you want to ask these Charismatic/Pentacoastal healers why they don't assemble all of themselves and go down to that place and let's see if they have the power to heal!

Opportunities to heal the sick are unlimited. And if, as Charismatics/Prntacoastals claim, such miracles are "Signs and Wonders," (listen carefully, they say this) if they are "Signs and Wonders" designed to convince unbelievers that the gospel is true, then wouldn't that be the way to really convince them?

But strangely, the healers rarely, if ever, come out of their tents, rarely ever come out of their buildings, rarely ever come out of their television studios. I have never seen them in a hospital. I have never seen them walking down a ward with a camera following them. They always seem to exercise their gift in an environment in which they totally control, staged their way, run according to their schedule. Why don't we see them moving out?

(John MacArthur)

Even though it is 25 years ago I remember him warning everybody that some will be healed and some will not be healed but the greater more important good would be a spiritually grown faith for eternity.

And yet when I refer to that greater good, the spiritual growth that comes from being afflicted, I am and have been rebuked for that. No, the healing MUST take place according to some because they KNOW that it's not God's will for me to be sick, or rather that is is God's will for everyone to be healed.

And if indeed it is God's will that all be healed, then WHY doesn't it happen every time someone asks according to James 5?

And that's where they get into the blame game. They can't blame God for the healing not taking place. Who's left? The answer is obvious, the sick person. And you know, the sick person already has enough on their plate in struggling with a usually debilitating illness without the ignorant rubbing salt in their wounds.

The best answer to someone who hasn't been healed is *I will be praying for you. In the meantime, is there anything I can do to help?* And if you think that it IS because of sin in their lives, pray that God would reveal it to them.

But for crying out loud, unless it's blindingly obvious that there's a block to healing, people need to stop analyzing it to death and MINISTER to the sick and hurting instead of making it worse.

In scripture we have instances were we have no healing because of no faith( MARK 6:1-6) and then we have others were it is a burden to bear.

No, that's not true. Read the verse.....

Mark 6:4-6 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief.

He could do no mighty work there EXCEPT heal a few sick people. It does NOT say He couldn't heal anyone. On the contrary, that was ALL He could do.

It sounds like a wise man of God you had there that long time ago.

What is see going on is posters are taking it personally rather than seeking what is truth and validating that truth according to the scriptures/ This gets skirted time and again when questions are raised with few answers, rather outbursts and or that condescending mindset we have seen when any particular denomination or movement sets itself up as having or experiencing something others haven't had or don't also experience.

Many cult practitioner's also lay claim to "experiences" and healing.....so the question is how do they tell the difference between those healings and experiences if from God? Or their immagination, or demonic, or simply from group suggestion? It goes with the territory oft the "Spirituality" Movement of our day.

And I personally believe that these types of "experiences" and "healers" are what is going to one day be used as a common denominator to bring the religions together on common ground....just because a leaders ays something is from God does not make it so....and we're going to see more of this activity as people turn away from God to "other" counterfeit signs and wonders...and they are doing so now.

Interesting is Catholics, Mormons, New Agers, Muslims, and a host of others... and even the Jewish people have their "Mystical" outlanders who are fast becomming the acceptable norm.....but then the Lord did say we would "tolerate" what once would not have been...and that in these days people would seek these.

In the early years of Pentacoastalism it was not accepted ny mainline Christianity...they were really off by themselves...and "tolerated". I think called "Holy Rollers" then. Then once it crossed into the Episcapal church in the form of the Charismatic movement...when this was pushed back Churches split....people "wanted" these expereinces and were ripe then for them.

Now we have what's been called the "Third Wave" which is the same thing just a different face. "Spirituality" has taken over the focus of Salvation in Christ as they seek the signs and wonders, and this is in all religions today in one form or another.

Sadly those who push back against this 'New Spirituality" and all the expereinces etc. are fast being labeled "intolerant"....where we know that Jesus called us to stand against error and false teachings.

It's going to become harder to reach people as the great deception begins and these hightened groups feed the masses what they want their "ears to hear".

Jesus says:..... “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

What Jesus does tell us is not to judge by our own opinions, but instead judge by the word of God, that is what it means to judge righteously. He always ‘encouraged’ the people to judge. ............God told Israel to judge the prophets in the Old Testament. He had the true prophets judge the false but the ‘people reacted saying the very same things people are saying today’. .....Your being negative oh you never have anything good to say. ....In the New Testament we are told to judge prophecy, to discern, to test the spirits and we are told to test ALL things. We are told to do this because it helps keep us away from what is false and evil.

There has been a trend going on for a number of years that has dulled the spiritual senses of the church and leavened the convictions of many a Christian. ......It has risen to new heights as of late where if anyone has anything to say about another they are told, “Don’t judge, “touch not my anointed” “do my prophets no harm” etc...... Maybe if some of the people that quote these verses would look at what they actually say “in context,” they wouldn’t have such flawed arguments, they would not find themselves becoming entangled emotionally.

What is ironic is that to tell people they are judgmental IS to judge them. ....What people are doing is recommending for us not to judge by the word of God, but dispense with any discernment.

(Let Us reason)

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