In Defense of the Papacy: 9 Reasons True Christians Follow the Pope

stpeterslist ^ | February 21, 2013 | HHAMBROSE

[Mrs. Don-o]

Actually, I think one could take apart this article and find some items we all agree with, some items some of us agree with, and some items nobody agrees with. But that would take rationality, discretion, the practice of Christian virtues like patience and forebearance, and (let me confess my own sins) those are in short supply, and getting shorter.

Peace to all people of good will. Sincerely. I hope you know who you are.

[Tramonto]

Wasn’t “Pontifex Maximus” the title of the Roman Emperors? I think it had something to do with them being considered the bridge between all religions.

True Christians follow Christ.

[Tramonto]

How do you ask them to intercede for you if not through prayer?

[ansel12]

Why do you call Mormonism Christian, the Catholic church doesn’t, they call it a non-Christian religion of it’s own.

[TradicalRC]

Can you tell me where I can find the passages that say we are all equal?

[verga]

As I recall it was a Baptist who baptized our Lord, long before Peter journeyed to Rome. Just sayin’.

And if the KJV was good enough for Jesus and Paul it is good enough for me. / SARC

[verga]

Was it Biblical when ruthless Roman emperors crowned themselves as Pope?

And you dare to take shots at public school teachers. BWHAHAHAHA, You are very funny little man! In a pathetic sort of way.

[verga]

Was it Biblical when ruthless Roman emperors crowned themselves as Pope?

Does this pass for real history in the world of homeschoolers?

[Salvation]

What the Catholic Church believes:

The Creed: A Spiritual Treasure (and its relevance to contemporary society
The Nicene Creed [Catholic Caucus]
On the Mend: The Church in the Early 21st Century
Radio Replies Second Volume - Value of a Creed
The Nicene Creed: Ancient Symbol of the Catholic Faith [Ecumenical]
What's the Point of Creeds?
What’s the Point of Creeds?
Who Needs a Creed? (part 1 of 12)

Creed 7: Ascended Into Heaven
Beginning Catholic: Creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Basic Tenets of Catholicism [Ecumenical]
The Catholic Nicene Creed
We Believe in One God...: The Nicene Creed at Mass [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
I Believe [Apostle's Creed]
Why the Creed Doesn't Mention the Eucharist
The Apostles' Creed in Public and Private Worship
More Than Our Father [The Creed]
The Nicene Creed in Greek and Latin
The Creed - latest revisions proposed by ICEL

[Syncro]

Its not a question of following the Pope (Yes it is, that's the premise of this article), but following the teachings of the Church where the Pope stands in the shoes of Peter and his disciples who were commanded by Christ to go forth and teach all nations. You are like the “illiterate” student in the class who tells the teacher, I don’t want to be taught, I can read and teach myself.

That's quite a stretch. (You are aware the title of this thread includes "True Christians Follow the Pope" aren't you? I'm glad you don't agree with that)

Either follow the pope and the "Church" teaching otherwise you are "like the 'illiterate' student in the class who tells the teacher, I don’t want to be taught, I can read and teach myself."

Kinda severe "punishment" for those that don't wish to follow your pope and instead opt for following Jesus and fellowshiping with other Christians in or out of a church setting.

It's easier to understand the Bible and Christian living through the Holy Spirit rather than through following some man.

So you can follow your own teaching, the teachings of 30,000 other Christian sects (including Joel Osteen or Rev. Wright, Joseph Smith and his band of Mormons: take your pick) or follow the teachings of the Catholic Church.

LOL you give such radical alternatives!

Pick a pastor you apparantly don't like (Osteen), a faux pastor who's claim to fame is shouting out "G-- damn America" (and was followed by Obama and his wife for at least 20 years), and the LDS belief system. (All whom you see as Christian sects.) It's either those or the teachings of the Catholic Church! Christians not associated with the Catholic church regect your alternatives and find others as led by the Holy Spirit.

Wright's church is totally anti-Christian and Mormons are NOT Christian at all. I thought Catholics knew that about the LDS org.

I'm sure if you ask your priest he will be able to confirm my statement.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Can such a declaration [Unam Sanctam] just be ignored? Was Pope Boniface saying something that is NOT true or is it just not true anymore and the Catholic Church changed her mind? ...I am not trying to play any game here. "

The short answer is that the quote in bold type is true, but cannot be be understood outside of the context of how the Catholic Church defines mortal sin. For an act to be a mortal sin --- and the sinner deprived of salvation ---

• the sin must be objectively wrong (this is called "grave matter")
• the person must realize that it is wrong ('knowledge of the mind"), and
• the person must do it fully intentionally ("consent of the will.")

So if Christ seriously intends for there to be "one flock and one shepherd," (John 10:16) and if this means the Catholic Church and the successor of Peter (to whom Christ --- three times ---gave the job of "feeding my sheep"), hence if Peter and his successors are chief shepherds --- three "if's" --- then it would be objectively wrong ("grave matter") for any person to fail to enter this Church, or to fail to remain in it, or to fail to be subject to Peter's successor, whosoever that might be.

In Biblical terms, it's evil for there to be split-up flocks and competing shepherds, when Christ's intention was for "one flock and one shepherd."

OK. Does that mean all non-Catholics are in mortal sin and have forfeited their salvation?

In a word, No.

This is because the two other elements of a mortal sin are not present: the "separated brethren" are almost always people who

• do not know that the Catholic Church, headed by Peter's successor, is the one flock Christ was talking about and/or
• do not freely intend or will to break with Christ's Church.

In other words, element #1 (grave matter) is present, but not element #2 (knowledge of the mind) and element #3 (consent of the will).

Pope Pius IX in his teaching on "invincible ignorance" pretty much destroyed the interpretation that Unam Sanctum meant that non-Catholics cannot be saved. Pius IX pointed out that it was possible for one to

• honestly not realize that the Catholic Church is Christ's Church, despaite the evidence ("invincible ignorance") and yet
• still be saved, although without being a member of visible Catholic Church.

Although Pius IX's teaching was five or six centuries after Boniface, the concept of invincible ignorance is much older, and should always have been (correctly) applied to the teachings of Unam Sanctam, and, indeed, to every moral teaching. Aquinas references "invincible ignorance" in his Summa Theologica (written in the 1200's, half a century before Pope Boniface's statement) and it's even in the writings of third-century Fathers.

I bolded the word "visible" Church because there are ways to be part of the Church without being part of the "visible" Church. Baptism of desire is one way, and it means desiring to do whatever is needed in order to honor God, do His will, appeal for His mercy, and enter His kingdom (you could say the Good Thief on the "other cross" did that). In the case of the "separated brethren," any valid baptism joins one certainly (even if imperfectly) to the Church since there is one Faith, one Lord and one Baptism.

BTW, this interpretation may be controversial (there are plenty of FReepers who would supply controversy!) but it is not unreasonable. It has reasons. It makes sense if you accept the premises.

Not should it be seen as insulting. We're all baptized sinners --- you, me, this pope and the next one. Saved by Christ, by grace, by the mercy of God. We all know that.

[wintertime]

Please do not ping me.

[PeevedPatriot]

[It should not] be seen as insulting. We're all baptized sinners

That's a perspective that I never found offensive as a nonCatholic. We are all baptized into one body (1 Cor 12:13). During the years I studied the faith I preferred to view myself as a CCC 1267 Christian in imperfect communion with the Church instead of invincibly ignorant :)

[verga]

HYPOCRIT

[wintertime]

HYPOCRIT
^^^^^^^^^^

Please do not ping me, again.This is my second, very polite request. I am NOT participating in this thread.

[boatbums]

"Most scholars since the time of Pius IX have, therefore, held that Unam Sanctum, while an authentic teaching, is not infallible and is, in fact, no longer considered the teaching of the Church". Found on a random Catholic forum.

But, not, ironically on THIS thread where the author cites Boniface's decree as if it is STILL the teaching of the Catholic Church. Why are Catholics contradicting themselves? How can something be called "an authentic teaching" but no longer considered the teaching of the Catholic Church? Sounds like a case of rationalization and double-talk.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you, PeevedPatriot.

Wow.

I tell ya, in this "one Body" of Christ, where each of us "belongs to all the others," it sometimes seems like there's a whole lot of autoimmune inflammation going on!

:o/

Peace to you!

[Syncro]

The Catholics are always tauting tradition

Of the church fathers, etc.

So everything a pope says must be seem as part of their tradition.

And they say that tradition is EQUAL to the scriptures, and sometimes say it is more important.

Scripture is never wrong, and never changes.

Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever.

Catholic Tradition changes.

The ONLY thing that could validate it would be consistency.

There is none unfortunately.

I love Christianity, it is so simple.

Believe in Jesus, follow Him and you are born again and have a PERSOANAL relationship with him.

It is so glorious and joyful I don't understand why all who call themselves Christian don't embrace the simplicity of having Jesus in them, and them in Jesus.

What an undeserved privilege it is!

I never could understand putting a denomination between a believer and Jesus as if that is the most important thing in a Christian's life.

[Steelfish]

You read things too literally. Teachings of the Pope means Peter and his successors both the oral and written traditions as well as revelation and tradition. Scripture tells that there were many things that Christ said and did that were not written down.

[verga]

Make sure are absolutely clear, unless you call GeronL on this lie right now I will throw this up in your face EVERY single time you dare to say a single word about facts. You are showing cowardice and hypocrisy.

You are bearing False witness by refusing to stand up for the truth of the Catholic Church