Posted on 11/14/2013 11:02:29 AM PST by fishtank
Published on Oct 30, 2013 http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-s... ... Strange Fire, part of Grace to You's Truth Matters conference series, evaluates the doctrines, claims, and practices of the modern charismatic movement, and affirms the true Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.
The conference features pastor and Bible teacher John MacArthur, as well as teaching or presentations by:
R.C. Sproul Steve Lawson Conrad Mbewe Tom Pennington Phil Johnson Nathan Busenitz Justin Peters Todd Friel Joni Eareckson Tada
“NOW faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of things NOT SEEN.”
Amen...and faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
I am reminded of a preacher who recently said ..” Get into your Bibles and read until God meets you there.”
I can attest that HE will...indeed He will...
Amen, caww. AMEN!
“You can type faster than me!”
And I can do it with my eyes closed, and even hold a conversation with someone else as I do it! (I used to do a lot of data entry.)
“The most natural conveyance of this is the speaker speaks in a language known only to God.”
From Gill’s commentary on the verse:
“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue,....” Or with tongues, as some copies and the Ethiopic version read: Dr. Lightfoot thinks, that the Hebrew tongue, which was become a dead language, and understood but by few, is here meant, and that not without reason; seeing the public prayers, preaching, and singing of psalms among the Jews, were in this languages (x); in imitation of whom, such ministers, who had the gift of speaking this language, read the Scriptures, preached, prayed, and sung psalms in it, which were no ways to the edification of the people, who understood it not; upon which account the apostle recommends prophesying, praying, and singing, in a language that was understood: otherwise he
“speaketh not unto men;” to the understanding, profit, and edification of men: but unto God: to his praise and glory, and he only knowing, who knows all languages, and every word in the tongue what is said; excepting himself, unless there should be any present capable of interpreting:
“for no man understandeth him: or “heareth him”:” that is, hears him, so as to understand him; he may hear a sound, but he cannot tell the meaning of it, and so it is of no use and advantage to him:
“howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries;” though under the influence and by the extraordinary gift of the Spirit he has, and to his own Spirit and understanding, and with great affection and devotion within himself, he speaks of the deep things of God, and the mysteries of his grace, the most glorious truths of the Gospel, yet the meaning of his voice and words not being known, he is a barbarian to them that hear him; and though what he delivers are truths of the greatest importance, they are a mere jargon to others, being unintelligible.”
I think it is a bigger leap to assume that this is a totally unknown divine language rather than simply a human language that is unknown to the hearers, and is, therefore, mere “[speaking] into the air” (verse 9), or something that is seemingly a barbarous tongue. If Paul was referencing a literal divine language, I doubt he would leave it so ambiguous, but would declare straight out that they are hearing words that are spoken in the very temple of God in heaven.
It’s reading too much into the text due to the necessity of explaining why human languages are not spoken in a pentecostal service.
“Those are Paul’s words, making a distinction btwn “the tongues of men and of angels,” (1Cor. 13:1) That would be mysteries, so why not?”
More than likely it is simply hyperbole, making the point that the gift of tongues is infinitely inferior to love, even if he “spoke with the tongue of angels.” But then we would still be left with a problem, is the language of angels mere babble? Can we look at a transcript of all these “Angelic tongues” being spoken and see that they are similar, in any way, and resemble a language at all?
GOD has also used Joni's disability to His glory. I can not think of any person who has had this large of a disability focused ministry and impacted so many disabled persons. Doctors that deal with patients with severe spinal cord issues and spinal or stroke rehab centers often give her first book to new patients.
This is what she had to say about faith healers. On December 8, 1999, Joni Eareckson Tada was on the Bible Answer Man, and made the following devastating comments about Word-Faith teachings. It took her years to accept her condition and likely more to realize the why and how come GOD did not heal her.
We live in a world that is under sins curse and will live here till we die. With it comes sickness, pain, sorrows, suffering, and finally at some point death. It is like Moses and like Paul it is how we choose to live within this world leaning on GOD's Grace which GOD told Paul was sufficient for the day that matters. It is far more important than physical.
A guy I once worked with talked to my wife about why she was still in a wheelchair after 10 years. Common sense, logic, and medical science, says a C-5 C-6 level issue in the spine with the added bonus of Polio Relapse. She's a Quad. He told her that her lack of faith is why she was not healed. His words caused her torment for years. I knew better and understood the how come but she felt unnecessary guilt that she should not have had. Finally reading Joni's books helped get her past that. In the same sense reading and listening to Joyce Meyers helped her get past some other traumatic events much earlier in her life. It is reading the testimpny of other who had been there done that and GOD brought them through it.
Yea I know Meyers is not many persons favorite. But her focus is aimed at helping women who suffered abuse. That is her real gift. Right or wrong otherwise she too has helped persons.
Perhaps one of the hardest toward Charismatics preachers on TV is John Hagee. I've read a lot of his earlier books like Beginning of the End, Final Dawn over Jerusalem, and Day of Deception, and I learned quite a bit. I didn't have to agree with him 100% to learn things.
I am very leery of preachers who offer wholesale healing, miracles, money windfalls, etc as it is not sound doctrine. The apostles basically died with the shirt on their backs and many died quite violent deaths. That is not to say GOD will not give to some the gift of wealth knowing that they choose to use it wisely to help others. GOD still heals persons as well. But as far as any minister geting up and healing like Christ and the Apostiles did? No! Look for a staged fraud happening.
I even believe the laying on of hands by preacher and elders asking GOD for healing is very valid. My life and my wife's life would change course from such. It was to ask for healing. When your in a bad storm with everything around you falling apart there is great comfort in hearing the voice of the one who controls the storm saying "It's going to be Okay". Meaning what? Healing? No not in the physical sense at all. In a spiritual sense and a message this is to be I am with you and have plans for you? Yes.
Some whys and how comes we may not be allowed to ever know and understand in this life. Just like like the Disciple on the boat in the storm when The Lord walked up to them and like the three students of Daniel in the furnace we are not left to face it alone.
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: ANd the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; IN THOSE DAYS it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all LANGUAGES OF THE NATIONS, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT GOD IS WITH YOU."
Now compare that with Acts 2:5-11.
"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN." And so on, through v. 11.
Tongues were for the Jews, communicating with those of every nation under heaven.
BTW:This also marks a Divine REVERSAL of Genesis 11:7-9.
Tongues were for the Jews, communicating with those of every nation under heaven....”
That sounds like a contradiction smvoice......communicating with ‘every nation’ would mean ‘various languages’ ....though the scripture indicates there were Jews there I understand from your reference this would also means others besides Jews...as it states...
...” ten men will take hold out of ALL the languages of the nations.....(which indicates ‘other’ than Jews)...of the skirt of him that is a Jew, (would indicate other than a Jew taking the hem of his skirt) saying...”We will go with you for we have heard that God is with you”.
When we were all praying my Aunt would be healed, many years ago, she died. The grief of my Uncle was overwhelming...he did not understand why God would not have healed her.
I said to him that He did heal her...she is completely whole and well and happy now....no suffering as she had known. He stopped cold in his grief as if reality was staring him in the face....then He knew...then HE understood.
We forget all things work toward the good of the children of God who are called according to ‘His purposes’....the key is we cannot see His purposes often until after the fact.. because... we have ‘expectations’ of what His purpose should be in how we see the picture or event in front of us.
Too often we step ahead of God....instead of just letting Him be the God we love so and trust Him that He knows..and that’s good enough.
That is what my mom could so, at about 300 wpm i think.
Dr. Lightfoot thinks, that the Hebrew tongue, which was become a dead language, and understood but by few, is here meant,
I have Gill also, but you left out b what he said first,
...the speech of angels, when they have assumed human bodies, and have in them spoke with an audible voice, in articulate sounds; of which we have many instances, both in the Old Testament and the New, wherein they have conversed with divers persons, as Hagar, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Manoah and his wife, the Virgin Mary, Zechariah, and others; unless by the tongues of angels should be meant the most eloquent speech, and most excellent of languages; or if there can be thought to be any tongue that exceeds that of men, which, if angels spoke, they would make use of.
Regardless, i see no warrant for relegating this to known languages, which i see Paul makes distinction from.
If Paul was referencing a literal divine language, I doubt he would leave it so ambiguous, but would declare straight out that they are hearing words that are spoken in the very temple of God in heaven.
Specifying the "tongues of angels" is not ambiguous if there is such a thing. And why not?
More than likely it is simply hyperbole,
That is the only warranted alternative i see.
Can we look at a transcript of all these “Angelic tongues” being spoken and see that they are similar, in any way, and resemble a language at all?
And why would it have to? God knows what a groan is expressing. Just being objective.
We just need to put ourselves in that place at that time to understand what was going on.
The same way souls tried the spirits in the first century. Allow what God can do according to Scripture and look at the fruit of each and rely on spiritual discernment.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (1 Corinthians 2:14-15)
Both Jews and gentiles were in the Corinthian church, and they spoke to God, not men, except via interpretation.
1 and 2 Cor. were both written before Israel was set aside. As were 1 Thess. 2 Thess. Gal. 1 Cor. 2 Cor. and Romans.
I said to him that He did heal her...she is completely whole and well and happy now....no suffering as she had known. He stopped cold in his grief as if reality was staring him in the face....then He knew...then HE understood.
A coupe years ago my dad passed from Prostate Cancer he'd been fighting for ten years. I prayed for his healing until in the final weeks and days I realized his remaining here with us was causing him much pain and torment. That's when I began to ask for him to be released peacefully from this world into the next. He was ready. In one of his more rational final days he told me I wanna go be with my Poppa. That was what he had called his earthly dad.
I was caring for him about 16 hours of the day and my mom and niece splitting the rest of the time. I knew enough about the nursing end of it so we did Hospice at home. His final morning I had went home to check on my wife's needs and get a few hours sleep. We just lived a quarter mile away. My niece called me about two hours after that. He died while asleep.
The man was my best friend the one I'd talk to, ask for advice etc. In the final decade he'd ask me about things as much as I'd ask him.
As much as I love him, as much as I loved my first wife I had just over three years with, and my grandparents aunts and uncles, I'd not ask they be brought back here. They are alive in spirit form, well, and with The Lord waiting. I also know that if the prayers of the ones departed from here could help us three women my dad loved being my wife now, two of his nieces in wheelchairs, my sister with Dementia, and even myself would be healed. I don't believe they see what is taking place here or if they do they have a much deeper understanding of why not to alter what is happening here.
I once worked with a nurse who was in effect my supervisor even though I was a maintenance man. I'd have to take her to residents on the complex house when medical emergencies came up or she'd tell me a patient up on the floor had died. She'd often say "Couldn't have happened to a nicer person" and she didn't mean it in a sarcastic or disrespectful way. After a while I caught on to why she said it.
“And why would it have to? God knows what a groan is expressing. Just being objective.”
Rom_8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
A great problem in using this verse to make sense of the babbling nature of tongue-speaking is that this is not something only promised to those who speak in tongues. This is something promised to all believers who have the Holy Spirit, who moves us to pray and gives us words to speak.
Speaking in tongues, on the other hand, is not promised to all:
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Basically, this is like saying that only those who are given the gift of tongues have this special intercession power experience with God, or that only those who have this gift can receive the special edification that comes from it.
1. You can say Israel was set aside as a nation very early, since they rejected their Christ and God is outreaching to the Gentiles in Acts 10, while still calling Jews to repentance.
Later, "Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46)
Yet later still: "when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he [Paul] shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles." (Acts 18:6)
Yet still later, "when they [the chief of the Jews] had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening." (Acts 28:23)
And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, ...Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Acts 28:25,28)
The message in all these is that God preaching to the Gentiles manifested a judgment against Israel, who as a nation was set aside as being the chief object of outreach. The judicial judgment of overall making their hearts heavy, and blinding their eyes took place during Christs ministry, as a result of their spurning of His grace. Thus the Lord wept over Jerusalem, and John quotes Isaiah, " He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (John 12:40)
However, at no time did this mean God would not continue to outreach to the Jews, and in which a remnant were saved.
As long as God was dealing with Israel as a Nation, miracles, signs and wonders, and legal ceremonies were performed. "...because of the Jews"
2. The premise that miracles, signs and wonders were simply for the Jews and thus they ceased is patently false, because not only did God still outreach to Jews (if secondarily), but miracles were critical for the Gentiles:
For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (Romans 15:18-19)
Once Israel was set aside, these things were no longer practiced (1 TIm. 5:23; 2 Tim. 4:20; Phil. 2:25-29),
That is not at all evidenced by the texts invoked, as nowhere it is written that the gifts at issue mean they there would be no sickness among them. Instead, the very end of Acts has Paul doing miracles, The absence of any after Acts 20 until Acts 28 is due to the change in Paul's ministry, from public evangelism to prison.
And this is dated around 62 A.D., after he penned 1+2 Corinthians (55 A.D.)
Moreover, Phil. 3:8-23 does not teach legal ceremonies ceased, which would happen in 70 A.D. and Philippians is dated about 51 A.D., before Paul is arrested in Jerusalem (Acts 21:27-36) in about 50 A.D. which he took a Jewish vow (per James direction).
It was at conversion that Paul counted all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (Philippians 3:8)
The textual support you provide indicates someone has a hypothesis that they are making texts fit into.
Have a God night.
It is not a problem at all, for it is not saying this was tongues, but only serves to illustrate that if God can understand what groaning expresses, He can understand what other non earthly tongue means.
I think it’s trying, even when going through the “valley of death” with those we love....to just let God have his way with all concerned. I have learned often times an extended illness in the family is more about those assisting the ill then the ill person...and the same goes with those leaving this world. Of which BTW whoever is with the dying person when they leave is by appointment, and those not there equally so.
It all works when we keep our eyes on Him......we sink when we loose our focus.
Pretty slow night tonight.
I would have to disagree with your statement regarding Africa, which I couldn't get back to before, (life does get in the way)....but would like to comment on further.
What solid Christian African Pastors are seeing is the Charismatic movement ‘preventing’ the people from Gods word and study of as well as from Salvation.....
This movement has focused the people ‘on the Pastors’ of these churches...claiming to be powerful in prayer they address personal “issues” of which the people seek resolution of..... They have become the new Witch Doctors so to speak....of which the Africans were accustomed to seeing with “issues” prior to the infiltration of the Charismatic Movement.
The Pastors main focus are on meeting peoples issues in all the emotional drama similar to here only far more emotional and dramatic.... which is why they get so many in attendance.
But... the Gospel message is not mentioned except as an after thought if that..... They begin their services with danceable music and the hype normal within the Charismatic churches and often the services continue in that venue until heeling's and such are addressed. An occasional verse might be read form the Bible but there is no expository teaching at all, the people do not here the context. The message's consists of repetition using Christian verbage , which we also see in the Charismatic churches here,....which is not true worship nor is it the Gospel Message any part of the singing...repentance is not heard.
Additional they focus on “Deliverance’ from the issues they come there with, again what draws them is to seek resolution to their personal problems, as they did the Witch Doctors prior.
Africans see a need for ‘Power’ far greater than we in the states can understand..... These Pastors show them this through their hyped up sensual and dramatic services.... as well... the Pastors are seen by the people as ‘Independent from Gods Word and become the “authority”.
Without the Pastors speaking of the redeeming blood of Christ and His sacrificial work the Gospel message is lost....so the life of true worship is also lost.
Saying this because: " Spiritually dead people cannot produce reference for a Holy God...cannot produce Godliness...cannot produce God Glorifying worship..because...Reverence for God is born out of hearts that are ‘changed’ by the Spirit , and the Spirit is NOT divorced from Gods Word.
By the Pastors teaching and practicing these “extraordinary gifts” they believe are still active today, and with the Pastors being seen similar to the Witch Doctors, just with a different title....and also seen independent from Gods word....then what is to stop them from adding their own rules, regulations and ways of handling the people????? Where does it stop???? It doesn't and the Christian Pastors of Africa are saying this movement has created a drought for the Word of God and the Charismatic Pastors are misleading many into sin as they accept the "honor and power" the people off er them.
I have written this from an African Pastor who sees the truth of what's happening in his country.....it is NOT as some would like to believe it is. "This movement is a counterfeit which is costing people their souls in Africa."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.