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Paul Never Quoted Jesus?
JimmyAkin.com ^ | not given | Jimmy Akin

Posted on 06/07/2014 11:13:33 AM PDT by Salvation

Paul Never Quoted Jesus?

by Jimmy Akin

A common claim in some skeptical circles is that St. Paul never quoted Jesus.

A second common claim is that, if he had reliable knowledge of Jesus, he would have quoted him.

The conclusion that is drawn from these premises is that St. Paul was not a reliable source on Jesus.

Since St. Paul’s letters are among the earliest works of the New Testament, some proceed from there to argue either that historical knowledge of Jesus is impossible or even that he didn’t exist.

Such arguments are highly problematic.

 

The Second Premise

First, let’s consider the premise that Paul should have quoted Jesus if he had reliable knowledge of him.

Is that true?

It would be true if, in his letters, Paul was offering detailed catechesis on the life and ministry of Jesus (the way the Gospels do).

However, if Paul is not intending to offer detailed catechesis about the life and ministry of Jesus, he would have much less occasion to quote him.

The fact is that St. Paul’s epistles do not attempt to offer detailed catechesis. He is writing largely in a pastoral vein, dealing, for example, with various problems that have arisen in the churches he has founded or is planning to visit.

As a result, he would have much less occasion to quote Jesus. The only time it would be relevant for him to do so is if Jesus said something directly relevant to the problem he is dealing with.

Even then, he need not do so. Just because Jesus said something relevant does not mean that it must be quoted.

Christians today write on all kinds of subjects without being forced to quote everything Jesus said that might be relevant to the issue at hand.

 

The First Premise

Then there’s the first premise–that Paul never quoted Jesus.

Um, dude? 1 Corinthians 11?

[23] For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread

[24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 

[25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 

Is that the only time? Nope. Off the top of my head, there’s also 1 Timothy 6:

[18] for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” 

That’s a quotation of a saying of Jesus that is also preserved in Luke 10:7.

It should be pointed out that, in the latter case, many skeptics will challenge Paul’s authorship of 1 Timothy, but the arguments that he had no hand in the letter are weak, and in any event 1 Corinthians is of undisputed Pauline authorship.

Then there are cases in which Paul does not directly quote Jesus but does directly allude to his thought.

One of these is in 1 Corinthians 7:

[10] To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband

[11] (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) — and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

This reflects Jesus’ teaching on divorce and remarriage as found, e.g., in Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18.

Note that Paul elsewhere acknowledges when he isn’t able to document something from Jesus’ teachings. Later in the same chapter, he writes:

[25] Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

And there are places where he alludes to Jesus’ teaching without making the allusion explicit (he’s trusting the reader already to know the source). An example is found in 1 Corinthians 13, where he says:

[2] And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

The concept of faith moving mountains is an apparent reference to a teaching of Jesus that is preserved in the Gospels (Matt. 17:20, Mark 11:23).

One could go on, but what we’ve already seen is enough to reveal how flawed are the claims that Paul never quoted or was unfamiliar with the teachings of the historical Jesus.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; saints
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To: Iscool; annalex

Are you saying Jesus was quoting New Testament scripture?


41 posted on 06/07/2014 5:56:23 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
Are you saying Jesus was quoting New Testament scripture?

Jesus was re-affirming what he said a slightly different way, in the NT...

42 posted on 06/07/2014 6:02:14 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Gamecock
A common claim in some skeptical circles is that St. Paul never quoted Jesus. A second common claim is that, if he had reliable knowledge of Jesus, he would have quoted him. The conclusion that is drawn from these premises is that St. Paul was not a reliable source on Jesus.

That's just crazy talk!

43 posted on 06/07/2014 9:08:26 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Iscool
Jesus was re-affirming what he said a slightly different way, in the NT

So He *was* quoting, re-affirming, New Testament scripture?

Isn't this what you're interpreting from: "as the scripture hath said"? The New Testament scripture?

44 posted on 06/07/2014 9:21:34 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Iscool

How is He re-affirming scripture that has not yet been written?


45 posted on 06/07/2014 9:24:33 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: nikos1121
I don’t think Paul ever met Jesus.

That's an interesting opinion, but you might want to read your Bible passages about the preparation of Saul of Tarsus to accept the ministry to Gentiles. Saul/Paul spent about three years in the Arabian desert near Damascus, being supernaturally discipled by the risen ascended Jesus, Lord and Messiah/Anointed/Christ (Gal. 1:1-12, 15-17). He was not discipled by any of The Eleven, but was chosen, called, and prepared or his ministry by Christ Himself.

Subsequently, after briefly visiting Jerusalem for a couple of weeks, he went back to his home city Tarsus, a Graeco-Roman center of learning and erudite living, to learn the ways of the Gentile commerce and philosophy, to address that segment of Near Eastern inhabitants effectively.

After about 11 years, Paul went again to Jerusalem, where the ministry to the Gentiles was given to him, reserving the ministry to the circumcision (Jews, and -- Arabians?) as Peter's area of oversight. Parting with the right hand of fellowship, he went with Barnabas, an old friend, back to Antioch of Syria, where they were teaching elders.

46 posted on 06/08/2014 12:54:27 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: Salvation

Hyam Maccoby, “Revolution In Judaea: Jesus and The Jewish Resistance”


47 posted on 06/08/2014 7:06:56 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: Salvation

I must be living in a cave or something lol, I’ve never heard of this ‘argument’.

I need to get out more...


48 posted on 06/08/2014 8:39:12 AM PDT by thatjoeguy (Every law passed is one person forcing their morals on someone else.)
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To: Salvation
your post speaks loudly of the doctrine of Holy Tradition

Yes, that is what anybody interested in the legacy of St. Paul must conclude: the Holy Tradition is the proving ground of the Holy Catholic Church.

49 posted on 06/08/2014 11:26:44 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Iscool

Right, you can find plenty allusions to the “living water”, as well as the water itself at the entrance to the Church, but there is no scripture known to us that Jesus is referring to in “as the scripture saith”.


50 posted on 06/08/2014 11:30:03 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Olog-hai
Read Isaiah 12:3 and Zechariah 14:8 for starters.

For allusions one would need to start with Genesis 2:6,10. But Christ's speech in John 7:38 is not a quote, and neither a paraphrase, because neither of these speak of living water coming from the "belly". Zacharias specifically speaks of Jerusalem, not any person; Isaiah speaks of water drawn by the believer rather than given out by him. That is the striking, somewhat amusing aspect of John 7:38 that is not found in any other scripture; yet Jesus refers to it as if it were itself known Scripture. Which illustrates my point about the manner of all quoting done by the Fathers of the Church: it is imprecise, often unmarked as a quote, and at times quotes material not canonized.

51 posted on 06/08/2014 11:41:21 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
Jeremiah 2:13 and 17:13 refers to “the LORD” as “the fountain of living waters”. Furthermore, the word translated “belly” in John 7:38 is κοιλια, which can refer to the heart or the womb.

And the New Testament refers to Jesus as the head of the church rather than a “father” thereof.
52 posted on 06/08/2014 11:54:02 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Mad Dawg

Aha, thank you. I thought there has got to be more direct quotes than 1 Cor 11.


53 posted on 06/08/2014 11:55:07 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: D-fendr
How is He re-affirming scripture that has not yet been written?

:)

54 posted on 06/08/2014 11:56:31 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Olog-hai

Correct all that, but that is beside the point I am making. The “father” of the Church I was referring to was, of course, St. Paul, whose legacy is the focus of the article.


55 posted on 06/08/2014 12:00:45 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

In the Episcopal Church we had “Offertory Sentences” said at, yes, the Offertory! (What are the chances of that?)

One of the options was “Remember the Words of the Lord IHS, how He said, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

So, that half verse is engraved in my alleged mind.


56 posted on 06/08/2014 12:36:24 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: Olog-hai
Incidentally, that verse is the reading of the Pentecost Vigil yesterday (Link).

the word translated “belly” in John 7:38 is κοιλια, which can refer to the heart or the womb.

Yes; of course the "belly" here is poetic rather than anatomical reference. The marian angle that comes with the "womb" is tempting, but Jesus used masculine gender.

ο πιστευων εις εμε καθως ειπεν η γραφη ποταμοι εκ της κοιλιας αυτου ρευσουσιν υδατος ζωντος

57 posted on 06/08/2014 12:36:27 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: D-fendr; Iscool
Are you saying Jesus was quoting New Testament scripture?

The rational kernel in what Iscool suggests is this:

The scripture has talked about those that believe on Jesus Christ...That's the end of that statement

That is the idea suggested by St. John Chrysostom:

But where here does the Scripture say this? No where. What then? We should read, He that believes in Me, as said the Scripture, putting the stop here; and then, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water: the meaning being, that that was a right kind of belief, which was formed on the evidence of Scripture, not of miracles. Search the Scriptures, he had said before.

I just came across this because I was doing today's Mass readings translations with the Catena Aurea and coincidentally, this was the Gospel segment at the last night's vigil.

So it is an opinion coming from a Catholic authority. "He who believes in me on the evidence of the Old Testament Scripture becomes a source of living water for others" is the paraphrase suggested by St. John the Chrysostom. Unfortunately, St. John's and Iscool's interpretation is failed by the next verse:

Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive, who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given (John 7:39)
So the reference to then-existing scripture was not a characterization of the proper belief, because the Spirit would give the proper belief. It was, like many here suggested, a reference to the numerous times holy water is spoken of in the Old Testament. My point is that it is a reference but not a direct quote, not even a paraphrase; it is a development of the living water metaphor of grace into a new doctrine, that a believer becomes one through whom grace is transmitted to others.

Besides, ending a sentence by "as the scripture saith" is unnatural. Usually, we say "scripture says..." and then we make a quote. But especially here when the putative next sentence has "rivers" for its subject, leaving the "He that believeth in me as the scripture saith" a sentence without a verb.

ο πιστευων εις εμε καθως ειπεν η γραφη The believer in me as said the scripture
ποταμοι εκ της κοιλιας αυτου ρευσουσιν υδατος ζωντος rivers from his belly flow water living

Does it look like a natural breakdown? I don't think so.

58 posted on 06/08/2014 1:05:59 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Mad Dawg

That is an argument for hearing the scripture being preferable to reading it.


59 posted on 06/08/2014 1:07:37 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

Good point.

THe year I taught the postulants Vespers and Lauds I said that when they were praying alone they should still say or whisper the Psalms and reading, or at least move their lips so that their minds would stay with the Scriptures.


60 posted on 06/08/2014 1:35:11 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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