Posted on 06/07/2014 11:13:33 AM PDT by Salvation
Many ill things started with Augustine's inability to leave good things alone. Reading as if one is talking,-- for of course a reading man is talking -- was one of these things.
“That’s an interesting opinion, but you might want to read your Bible....”
Hmmmm, let me understand this. You say that because Paul had “visions” of Jesus that means that He actually met Jesus in the flesh?
I guess I’ve met him too.
I don’t Jesus ever met Paul. They certainly knew of each other, same as Wellington probably never met Napoleon.
[1] If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed), but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [2] I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), [4] That he was caught up into paradise, and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter. [5] For such an one I will glory; but for myself I will glory nothing, but in my infirmities. [6] For though I should have a mind to glory, I shall not be foolish; for I will say the truth. But I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth in me, or any thing he heareth from me. [7] And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh (2 Cor. 12)
While Paul is self-effacing in this passage, one thing is clear: whether the meeting took place "in the body, or out of the body" did not matter to him, nor should it matter to us. What does matter is
be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:11, 4:16, cf John 20:21).The reality is the fact that the Holy Apostles and the prelates of the Church today are sent by the Holy Spirit as Christ to us.
And just last week I ran into a very silly Piskie woman, liberal and feminist, who tried this one on me after I responded to her announcement that she had left the Catholic church because of "the way they treat women" with the announcement that I had headed in exactly the opposite direction for the same reason.
I think the simple question was, did Paul ever actually meet Jesus? There is nothing in the bible that says that he did. No one doubts the spiritual conversion, the revelation, the committment that became for Paul. He was no doubt with people who personally knew Jesus, but he never met him. Had he met Jesus, he probably would have had him killed.
It occurred to me the other day to try to find a forum where I could ask what the difference is between the Episcopal Church and the UU church — other than haberdashery.
I can’t think of TEC as theologically serious any more. There are still good individuals, but as a corporate entity, pft.
YES.
I will NEVER forget my first funeral — when I was crucifer. WHen Fr Warren cranked up with “I am the Resurrection ...” I just about jumped out of my skin.
He met resurrected Jesus. He could not tell if, and in what sense He was “in the body”, but we meet persons, not bodies. He met the Person.
No, not in that distant sense. Jesus spoke directly to Paul, as He met with and spoke to Moses in the same way. As I commented before, Paul learned his doctrine from the risen Jesus, not from the Eleven, nor even from Peter alone (Galatians 1).
I appreciate your thoughts, I really do, but this discussion is getting a bit off the initial tract. Jesus and Paul never met. There is no proof that they did meet. We can say all we want about them meeting spiritually, and Paul being directed as born again believer etc. I don’t doubt that, but thankfully, they didn’t meet before Christ’s death. Because Paul in his non Christian period of life hunted down Christians and prosecuted them.
I do not believe an episcopacy is to be construed from the passages cited.
I have little interest in an individual’s belief.
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